Khurram's Quorum – Ep 019: Alamdar Hamdani on entrepreneurial civil service and the most underrated risk in the US

The son of a cab driver who sold newspapers door-to-door as a teenager in small-town Texas is now the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Texas. Alamdar Hamdani and I talk about the part of that story you don't usually hear: how unpaid pro bono work after 9/11 quietly turned into a public service career nobody planned. We also get into the risk he calls the most underrated threat facing the country right now.

Top Insights

• Alamdar started doing free FBI-interview representation for Muslim clients after 9/11 because he wanted to be a public servant and "the lowest threshold to public service is to raise your hand and go, I'll do it and I'll do it for free."
• He frames his early civil rights and pro bono work as entrepreneurial and low-risk: he kept his full-time firm job and built it on the side, never as a plan to reach the U.S. Attorney's office.
• The job offer that changed his life came from Amul Thapar, the first South Asian presidentially appointed U.S. Attorney, and Alamdar accepted it the day after learning his wife was pregnant, before he could let the news talk him out of the move.
• He says the relationships he built across the political spectrum through the South Asian Bar Association, plus mentors like Jim Ho and Neil Vidmar, are the reason he got the job: "it took a village."
• Growing up poor became an asset, not a wound, because it taught him happiness doesn't come from an expensive car or house, which freed him to take a pay cut for public service.
• He names the Mexican cartels as one of the biggest national security threats in the U.S., pointing to fentanyl pressed into counterfeit Adderall and oxy pills that are killing first-time teenage users.

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Full Transcript

Khurram Naik: This is Khurram with Khurram's Quorum. My guest today is Alamdar Hamdani, the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Texas. What I love about this story is that it's the classic American story of how the son of poor immigrants in small-town Texas became the U.S. Attorney for one of the most important jurisdictions in the country. But I discovered another equally American part of the story that I hadn't heard elsewhere: the story of the entrepreneurial civil service that led him to where he is today. So without further ado, here's Alamdar. Alamdar, it's great to connect with you. Thanks for taking the time to talk today.

Alamdar Hamdani: Oh, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you for having me.

Khurram Naik: So I read an article about you from 2006. There are some pretty good gems in there. And something I found out about you that you and I have in common is we've both done some door-to-door sales work. So you sold newspapers as a teenager?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah.

Khurram Naik: And not much more than you, I worked on a political campaign where I was knocking on doors doing door-to-door canvassing. So fairly similar experiences. But I'd love to hear about that experience for you, what that was like, and what's the legacy of that? Looking back now, what are the skills or perspectives that you have today that you gained knocking on those doors?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah, you know, so I was 13 or 14, just a new immigrant a couple of years before. So my dad was a cab driver. My mom worked a minimum-wage job. I grew up in a small two-bedroom apartment in Euless, Texas, with my little sister. So I felt like I needed to go get a job and go do something. And so I sold newspapers for the Dallas Morning News door-to-door. And it was actually quite a thing, looking back on it. It was kind of sketchy and dangerous. They'd pile a bunch of us who weren't old enough to get a real job into the back of a van. First of all, a bunch of kids being piled in the back of a van. And then we'd be driven to some sketchy neighborhood in Dallas. And we'd go door-to-door, apartment complexes, houses. And we'd give some pitch about buying the newspaper so I could win a trip to DC. And the legacy of that is, you know, learning how to go and talk to strangers at a door is a pretty scary thing to do. And being able to capture somebody's attention for even five seconds before they shut the door was kind of a win. And you know, so I learned a lot about everything from just human dynamics to the cadence of my voice and how fast I spoke and how I said things. And of course, now as a lawyer, all of those things come into play, both from the human-nature standpoint as well as the technicalities of, again, you know, the timbre, okay, the few seconds of voice.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, love that. Yeah, and very similar for me, just that experience of that fearlessness you get from knocking on doors. And, you know, mine was in a political context. So you can imagine how heated people were going to be.

Alamdar Hamdani: That's even more, I mean, that's more like people are going to shut the door and kick it on the way in, you know, so that's tough. Yeah, so, but you're right. It does, it does, it thickens your skin, you learn to connect with people, you learn to size people up pretty fast. And I think those are valuable skills.

Khurram Naik: Can you say some more about, because I think Euless is a small town in northern Texas, right? So that's got to be an unusual experience for an immigrant, an unusual place to grow up as an immigrant. So can you say some more about that experience?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah. So, you know, Euless is between Dallas and Fort Worth. It's part of what you call the Mid-Cities. It's not that small of a town, but it's a small city. And we moved there because we originally moved to Fort Worth, Texas, which is a big city. We lived with my uncle. That did not work out well for both my uncle's family and my family. So we left and we were living in a small, two-bedroom apartment. You know, my dad was a cab driver in England. We came here to search for the American dream. And my dad drove cabs and worked at a 7-Eleven convenience store. My mom worked everything from waitressing to finally getting a job with the airlines, but nothing beyond minimum wage. So the experience of living in Euless for me was one about just watching my parents survive in this space. Next door to us, there was a family of eight from Tonga. And so you had this very multicultural kind of thing. But then, if you go to my high school, I think I was one of two or three brown people in the entire high school. My high school was big. The graduating class was 620 people. And so growing up, you know, I got my fair share of words describing brown people, you know, you've probably heard them all. And that's where I first heard them. And at the time when I was growing up, I grew up Muslim. So I was also a Muslim at the time. So that was a rarity for them to see as well. So a brown person, Muslim, I had an English accent, which didn't help the situation any. So add to all of that, all these things. And that being said, one of the great things I think about people who grew up with me or me is, I had really good parents. And I never knew how poor I really was. And I think there was something good about that. And maybe because I also understood we were poor, I didn't ask for a lot. But I always had what I needed in high school. I always had what I needed throughout the day. I never wanted for a meal, which I think is not always the case with folks who live below the poverty line. But it's where I learned about America. It was in Euless, Texas. It's where I learned, you know, where I became a Dallas Cowboys fan. I was a fan of theirs back in the day, you know, which is the greatest football team that's ever lived.

Khurram Naik: And it's so interesting, because I have to pick up on that, because I was born in Houston, I lived there for the first 10 years. And, you know, it made a mark on me. My parents told me when I moved to New Jersey, I just always kept on bragging about Texas and how amazing it is and how I was going to go back. And that was my whole thing. And I think there is something about Texas specifically that really does — you could use the word "indoctrination." I mean, Texas has its mythology, right? I mean, Pecos Bill and all these kinds of characters. There wasn't any mythology in New Jersey. There was the New Jersey Devil. And that's it. But there wasn't like stories or tall tales or that kind of stuff. So there's like a mythology about Texas and it stays with you. So I still feel very connected to Texas in that way. And that is something I wonder about you: you know, despite feeling so different early on — and not necessarily intentional, children don't necessarily know what they're doing, they're just echoing things they've heard — but you know, what would you say is the most Texan thing about you?

Alamdar Hamdani: I'd say the most Texan thing about me is I say "y'all," that is a Texan thing to do. It is, it's never the southern thing because I was in Kentucky and they don't say "y'all" as much as we do. You know, it's also, I think part of the most Texan thing, and this is serious, that's part of me is we're friendly people. I mean, it's, you know, it's a place where you can walk down the street and say hello to somebody and they say hello back and it's not unusual. You know, when I'm in a courtroom and I've got opposing counsel on the other side, we're always going to be kind to each other. And I think there's a southern part of it. You know, the whole southern hospitality part is alive and well, even in a big city like Houston. And I think it makes a big city like this a little smaller. You know, and so growing up in England, I watched the show Dallas. You know, I don't know if you're old enough to remember that show.

Khurram Naik: I know that show.

Alamdar Hamdani: And so when I moved to Dallas, I had that connection. America's team at the time was the Dallas Cowboys. So that was a big deal for me. That's why I became a Dallas Cowboys fan, because I wanted to be everything American. And, but yeah, and I think when it comes to Texas, it's all about just the kindness and the hospitality. And you don't see — like my sister lives in New York. And I think if I went around, you know, Queens saying hi to people, I'd get really funny looks.

Khurram Naik: So, well, you know, skipping around, I think it was really helpful to get some of that background for you. And I hope you don't mind if we skip around a little bit.

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah, yeah.

Khurram Naik: But fast forward to today, you know, there's such a fascinating contrast, because what I'm hearing is you felt out of place growing up. And, you know, how could you be any more in place? You are the man now, like you are, you know, the prosecutor for the Southern District of Texas. So this is society saying you squarely belong here. So how do you make sense of these two different experiences that you've had?

Alamdar Hamdani: Well, you know, what it does is, I think they're both the same in this, in that the American experience isn't a white experience. It isn't a black experience. The American experience is a patchwork. The American experience, unlike any other country, even England, which has got multicultural parts to it — this is a multicultural society. It's one that has been built upon immigrants from all over, right? And it's a place where immigrants come from all over. So I think the fact that, you know, a South Asian is the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Texas is not surprising. What is surprising is that it's taken this long to get here at times. But then that's not surprising if you know the history of South Asians. So, you know, South Asians in the United States weren't here by any stretch until 1965 when the immigration laws opened up. In 1965, before the immigration laws opened up, there were, I think, 9 to 10,000 South Asians in the entire United States. And so anybody of my vintage, 51 years old, is probably going to be an immigrant. And it's going to take time for that immigrant community to get into society and see its children grow up and take on positions that are probably uniquely American, like being a lawyer. So it's not surprising that it's taken this long for a South Asian to become the U.S. Attorney, just because we as South Asians haven't been in this country as long. And it's not surprising considering how multicultural it is. Now, if you come to the U.S. Attorney's office in the Southern District of Texas, you will see a wall of all the prior United States Attorneys. And except for an African American woman, they all look the same and they all don't look like me. But my hope is, of course, that as the first I'll be the last, and that you'll have more South Asians. But I think it's wholly American for somebody of a different hue to become the U.S. Attorney, to go up high in government. Does that make sense?

Khurram Naik: Yeah, that does make sense. I think this also ties into — I think part of the obstacle seems to be that there are things, you know, we as a South Asian community, and there's an overlap I think with Muslims as well — I, too, grew up Muslim, Pakistani — and there are choices that we made as a community as well in responding to our circumstances. And so I think something that you saw growing up, particularly for Muslims, I think is an awareness of being involved at the civic level, being involved in politics. So when I worked on the political campaign, I was 21 and my parents were very opposed to it and said, don't get involved. And until then, we got messages from my parents, not just my parents, but just other people in our community saying, hey, you know, these guys are the government, the government's tracking you, these kinds of things. You know, it didn't sound implausible, but it just sounded like a bit of a stretch. And then I think some of the things we learned after 9/11 validated that. And so there's an understandable awareness that, you know, let's say South Asians, Muslims, whatever you have in between there, have had about being involved. But unfortunately, the only path seems to be is through. And so I think you — it seems to me that you were an early mover in that direction, you were an early mover from our communities to get involved in civically minded activities, advocacy. And so I'm really curious about where that came from, because I've read that, you know, you were impacted by 9/11, you had — your wife was pregnant at the time. Just a lot that was happening for you personally that, you know, you were feeling impacted. And so I'd love to hear about that. And then some more about what are choices you made that you feel some of your peers that come from similar parts of the world or similar influences didn't make? Because it sounds like you made some choices that are unusual. I'd like to explore that.

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah, no. So I was active politically when I was in college at the University of Texas. So when I, you know, I was at UT from '89 to '93. So, Clinton got elected in '92. And so there was this — when you're a 20-year-old in college, you have this idealistic view of the world. And I think for me, maybe because I grew up in England a little bit and I was the first one to go to college, I didn't know what I wasn't supposed to get involved in. So I got involved, and you know, my mom and dad, they were two immigrants just trying to pay the rent, to really counsel me on what I should or should not get involved in. So a lot of my paths in life have been ones I've just kind of gone down because I felt like it's the right way to go. I didn't know. Or maybe the wrong way. So I was involved in politics in college. But then, you're right, I stayed out of it. You know, when I was in law school, I went to law school at night at the University of Houston. I was working at a company and I was like, if I can maybe one day make 60 grand a year and be the happiest guy in the world. And I thought that maybe this law degree would get me there. And so then I made law review and then I realized that all these law firms were paying a lot more money than that. And so I went to school full time and finished my law degree. And I got a job at a mid-sized firm that became a big firm. And anyway, so I did the big-firm life and I was married. I was trying to make as much money as I could. Now all I wanted to do was become partner at a law firm because that's what I thought was the pinnacle of any career in law. And then, as you said, 9/11 happened. So when 9/11 happened, I was two years out of law school. And I realized, I just realized that people who looked like me or shared my parents' faith were going to be looked at with eyes drawn just by the deeds of Muslim terrorists. And so I said, what do I do? I got this law degree, what do I do? And first of all, the fact that I said that to myself, I think is kind of a big part of my life change, because I said that to myself. I said to myself, what do I do? What should I do? And I started to represent people pro bono in FBI interviews. And so the FBI was interviewing people around Houston. And after 9/11, pretty much, if you were a Muslim male of a certain age, you were going to be questioned by the FBI. And so I started representing people for free. And I teamed up with a guy who did criminal defense work, because all I did was commercial litigation. And I learned about the practice of how to protect people's rights in those interviews. I also learned about several things. I learned how my client was extremely terrified. I learned how the agent was terrified. They didn't want another 9/11 on their hands. But I also learned about myself. And I learned that I really enjoyed doing that work. And I also enjoyed not charging for it. Sounds weird. But I felt I could just be more in the moment and more for that individual and be more aware of what the issues were because I wasn't getting paid. And they couldn't pay anyway. If I didn't charge, if I did it pro bono, I just felt there was something that just felt a little bit more pure to me. Right or wrong, that's how I felt. And so I did these. And so, as I told people, I used to say I did the billable work to feed my family and I did the pro bono work to feed my soul. And it really did. So that's how — that moment, that right there changed my life. That decision to get involved and be a part of something changed my life. And it would eventually lead me to joining the board of the ACLU of Texas, to doing civil rights work. Luckily the firm was letting me do both. I eventually left the firm, starting my own practice, so I could do more in-depth civil rights work. I did habeas petitions for people stuck in immigration detention. And I eventually took on a couple of criminal defense cases on the national security side. And so, but it all started, as you mentioned, because of that decision to get involved. And of course, that would all eventually lead me to want to leave private practice and become a public servant.

Khurram Naik: And so I'm struck with, you know, you reach out to the ACLU, you reach out to the Anti-Defamation League. And, you know, did anyone model anything like that? When you did those things, you know, like picking up the phone and calling these organizations to see how you can help — had you ever seen someone do something like that before? Like, where did you get this idea from?

Alamdar Hamdani: No, I just did it. Yeah. I just did it. And you know what? It probably comes from — so, you know, one of my other jobs I had was selling AT&T and Sesame Street books over the phone. And so I remember it was the most awful job. Just awful. You know, this is the mid-90s, and it was just not a fun time.

Khurram Naik: But I'm not sure you would pick up the phone and start talking like the voice of Cookie Monster to get this idea.

Alamdar Hamdani: Exactly. No. If I did that, maybe I would have gotten more sales and I would have stuck with it. But so picking up the phone and calling somebody wasn't so scary. I'd say what was scary was knocking on the door and walking in and seeing who you were and saying, what do we talk about? But, you know, I think what helped — you talk about the Anti-Defamation League, right? Historically a Jewish organization. But I called them, I literally called them. I didn't know anything about it. But the word "anti-defamation," I was like, I don't want to be defamed. This is exactly — I think I need to call this organization. And that's why I called them. And it was great. It ended up being a wonderful relationship and marriage. I learned so much about civil rights work and about engaging not only with the community but engaging with law enforcement and, you know, having a mutual kind of understanding of each other. Of course, it's through that process that I got to know law enforcement, where I got to know not only FBI agents or local police, but also got to know eventually the federal prosecutors in the Southern District of Texas. And eventually one day, I remember I'm sitting there on the other side of the AUSAs, defending somebody, and I said to myself, I really believe I want to be on the other side. And so, but yeah. It all starts with just picking up that phone and, you know, making the call. But yeah, I modeled nobody except my own Sesame Street book-selling days.

Khurram Naik: I'm so fascinated with this point in your story because I just think there's so many interesting themes or dynamics at play there. So, you know, here you are, a federal prosecutor, and just at a glance, you know, if you know something about federal prosecutors, you have this image in your mind of this very storied arc that led them there, of kind of this clear trajectory towards the office. And I think, you know, when we think about government officials, do we really think of the word "entrepreneurial"? But I can't see how you could have ended up where you are today without this entrepreneurial venture that you did. And I'm also struck with the nature of your venture, which was, it was very low risk in that, you know, you didn't have to quit your job to do this thing. You were doing it on the side. You didn't necessarily have a destination. It's not like, great, I'll do this, and because I do this, I'll end up as the U.S. Attorney, you know, whatever. That's obviously not why you ended up doing it. You clearly were doing it out of some passion. But how do you also reconcile that with ambition? It's really interesting to discuss, because, so I read this interview from 2006 and you made a comment there that I'm assuming was tongue-in-cheek, but probably there's some truth to it, saying, oh, you know, I'm hoping my son will become president. And you know, I think that speaks to an ambition that you have for yourself, for your family. And you know, it's not an accident that you end up where you are now. So clearly ambition was a part of it too. But how do you reconcile ambition with doing thankless tasks? Like, there was no career prospect in representing, you know, the most hated group in America, the number one enemy, you know, these Muslims, you know, potential terrorists, for free. There's no money in that, no future in that. So how do you reconcile ambition with doing these thankless tasks, this entrepreneurship?

Alamdar Hamdani: You know, I think it's probably — so when I think of ambition, I think of moving up the ladder to the next step. For me, I don't think it was about ambition. It was really, I think, maybe, you know, maybe I just wanted to be a public servant, I didn't know how to be one. And so I did this stuff as public service. And you know, it's interesting. Probably one of the biggest moments in my life when I think about it is when I decided I didn't want to be a partner at a big law firm anymore. Like I woke up, looked in the mirror, and was like, I don't think this is what I want to be at this point in my life. What do I do? And so, you know, when money isn't the most motivating factor, I think you can allow public service and its attraction to kind of creep into your life and you want to do more of it. And so I think for me what drove me — so take my son, right? I was really cognizant of the example I'm setting for my child. When you, you know this, you've got a five-month-old, right? I think you have an older child as well. You're really cognizant that the person I am is going to be most likely the person my child is going to emulate to some extent. And so I want to make sure I set the best example I can for my son. And for me a good example is public service. And so if my son sees me in public service, then maybe my son will one day emulate that and give back to the community and not think, for example, money is the most important thing in the world. And I think that was driving me at the time. And so the reason I did all that pro bono and civil rights work was really just out of this idea of, I think I want to be a public servant. I don't know how to be one. The lowest threshold to public service is to raise your hand and go, I'll do it and I'll do it for free. Let's go. And then whatever, when I did that, I never thought it would be an avenue to one day become an Assistant U.S. Attorney. The same thing with all the South Asian Bar Association work I was doing. I was doing a lot of pro bono work, the South Asian Bar Association work. I will say this, I thought maybe I'd pick up some brown clients by doing that. Never happened. But what I really found joy in was meeting the mentors I'd love to have and maybe one day becoming one to others. And so again, that was just me trying to, you know, flesh out this public service idea. So eventually, all of that would lead me to getting the AUSA position, but it was never part of the grand plan when I went into it. And so I don't think ambition drove me. I think one thing I tell people now is you've got to follow your passion and follow where your heart leads you. I mean, I've done that. I've luckily done that. I've luckily gotten away with it and made a living while doing it. So anyway, that's kind of what led me down — that was kind of the thirst for public service.

Khurram Naik: And I think that's interesting because, you know, I think a lot of people perceive it to be a luxury to be a public servant. And so I'm reminded — there's a quote from John Adams that I just looked up that you just remind me of, and you may be familiar with it. And the original is kind of long. So I'll just kind of paraphrase it. He's saying — I think this is a note to himself or a letter to a friend, not sure, I think it might be a letter to his wife — "I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting and poetry." And so, you know, what's interesting is that I always perceived, I think, on the subject of immigration — so many people, my parents are immigrants, and they were selected for their economic acumen and ability. So my father had a full scholarship to a small MBA program. He was selected for his academic aptitude and his ability to perform economically in society, you know, to be a contributor in that way. And so then he did. He came to the country, and long story short, he wrote software for lawyers. That was the thing that he figured out to do and then he ran with that. So that's who they brought over, right? And so then their children, of course, are going to have something in them of entrepreneurship and that kind of economic drive. So of course, in our community, we see so much focus on economic performance. And that's the metric I think so many of us value ourselves by. And when I went to college, it really, really opened my eyes, because I just assumed, like, obviously you go to college to study and learn how to make money. And then I meet all these kids from other parts of the country that weren't necessarily from wealthy families. Some were, some weren't. But any number of them were like, yeah, I'm just pursuing this because I find this interesting. And I'm well aware that there's not really any money in this path. And to me, my mind was blown by that. It was like, what do you mean you're not optimizing for money or that kind of status? And then I really realized, yeah, I mean, what it means to have truly arrived here, to really fit in as American, is to be able to have that freedom to just pursue what, like you say, you value. And so I kind of wonder, how is it we can get people — say South Asians or other people that feel this pressure to perform in this one specific domain — how can you get people to see, hey, if you really want to fit in here and really feel like you're valued, do the thing that you're, use your word, passionate about, or that you are interested in or have aptitude for, stop optimizing for this one dimension that I think is so prevalent in our small community that we all measure each other against?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah. No. And so, you know, I was in private practice for nine years. And in those nine years, I did both. So I thought, okay, it's not much of a risk, as you mentioned earlier, because I had my full-time job and I was working and I was either building hours at the firm or had my own law practice, you know, taking on a combination of plaintiffs' work and defense work or even some contingency fee work, and also doing all the pro bono work as well. And so, I think if you can do both, great, it's also a lot, like it's a lot, you know. But I'll tell you, once I became an AUSA — and the good thing about becoming an AUSA is the pay is still decent — I was now able to just focus. I didn't have to worry about clients or billing or a draw or paycheck or making partner, all those worries went away. I also didn't have to worry about, you know, the pro bono work and how it's going to fit. All I had when I became an AUSA was, I get to be a public servant, which is clearly something I wanted to be, as well as get paid a halfway decent salary and just focus on putting away bad guys or doing justice, hopefully doing both. And it was almost freeing when that happened. And it took me a while to understand that that was there and that existed. Like, I didn't know what an AUSA was until I was probably a lawyer for several years. Like when you had that article in 2006, at that point I had probably met one or two AUSAs. That was the first time I met an AUSA. And so once I became one, it was really freeing. And before, I was doing a lot of fundraising on the politics side and doing all this other stuff. When you become an AUSA, you can't do any of that stuff. It's nice. You just get to focus on this one thing, one job you have. And so, you know, I will say this, it is not a luxury. And, you know, when I was doing it, I was doing both, working and doing it. I was working sometimes, you know, burning the candle at both ends. And then when you become an AUSA, you will take a pay cut to become one. For the most part, you probably will. Especially if you came from a big-firm kind of life and big-firm kind of pay. But like I said, it's a very simple edict. You do justice. It's that simple. And I do see more people going into public service over the past couple of decades.

Khurram Naik: Is there anything you miss about private practice?

Alamdar Hamdani: Um, it's really, you know — no. I'll say why I don't miss it. Maybe for me right now, private practice — I miss the money. That was nice, right? I do miss that. But it's civil work, and at times it's quite uncivil. And in those times, I would have been part of that problem, not part of the solution. Because that's just the atmosphere. It isn't, and it doesn't have to be, uncivil. But so that was one part. You know, when money gets involved, petty discovery fights get involved. People get pretty nasty. You know, your worth is measured by how many hours you bill. I don't miss that. But, you know, one thing I do miss is working on some pretty complicated issues with some really talented lawyers. And so you don't always get that when you're doing gun and drug cases at the U.S. Attorney's office. But you do get to do that when you do, as I did for most of my career, national security, public corruption, and large white-collar cases. There I get to kind of hang out with some of the folks I used to work with when I was in the private sector. So that's kind of fun. But there's not much I miss about the private sector really, besides the money. I really enjoy — there's one thing you have as an AUSA, which I don't think you find anywhere else. And that is the prosecutorial discretion that you have. Even as a young AUSA, you have so much discretion. Even taking a gun case or a drug case, you know, the moment an AUSA touches the life of another human being, that life changes. And so before we touch, before we reach out, you know, we've got to make sure we've used our discretion appropriately. And you know, the trust the department gives us to do that is pretty astonishing if you think about it. And so, that's why when I interview, I'm looking for those who I think would take that incredible power and use it judiciously and appropriately. But it's something you don't get in the private sector. That kind of discretion, yeah, so there's not much I miss from the private sector.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I understand. All right. So you mentioned that, you know, you had your own practice and then you just got exposed to federal prosecutors. Say some more about that story, about the path from having your own practice to becoming an Assistant U.S. Attorney.

Alamdar Hamdani: So, you know, it started with this pro bono work I'm doing. And so I got to know the FBI, but I never got to know AUSAs. But then one day — so one time I had this habeas petition for this guy who was stuck in immigration detention for several years. And I'm taking the deposition of the deportation officer. So if you can imagine, my client has been in detention for four years and he ran out of money years before that. He's Pakistani Muslim. And I take the deposition of the deportation officer and I ask him a specific question based upon a Supreme Court case that had just come out. And if the deportation officer answered in the affirmative, then under that case, my client had to be released. So I'm at the U.S. Attorney's office. First time I've come to the U.S. Attorney's office. This office I'm in now. And on the other side, there's a guy named Daniel Hu. Daniel Hu was the deputy chief over the civil section. And I asked the deportation officer the question and he says yes, which means my client must be released. So I say, hey, let me stop this deposition. You've got to understand, every civil interaction I've had has always been contentious, and like I said, civil has often been uncivil. I go, Daniel, can we go outside and talk? And we go outside and I go, Daniel, why is my client still in detention? You heard what the deportation officer said. And Daniel said, he will be released tomorrow. And so that was the first time I'd come across just — here, what a decency Daniel had. The power he had, the discretion to do that. And the honesty he showed. And that to me was the first moment when I was like, I like these guys. These guys are honest, they're good, they're smart. And then when I took on some criminal defense matters in the national security realm, I got to know the AUSAs on the other side because I had clients that were proffering for 3040 sessions. These were complicated national security cases. And when I got to know the AUSAs on the other side, first of all, same thing as with Daniel, decent, good people, just trying to do the right thing. I could see that. But then I also saw that this case I had, which was really cool and fascinating, and this client I had, which was incredibly interesting — I'm not going to get that often, but these guys get to see it every day all the time. I was like, I think I want to be one of them. And so that's what really led me to say, you know, I think I want to become a federal prosecutor, an AUSA. Never thought I'd have the credentials or the ability to become one. But that's what led me down that path. And so that's the arc. So the arc of my career is unlike many arcs, you know, it's one that for me was surprising when it led to the U.S. Attorney's office. It wasn't one that was ever planned out.

Khurram Naik: And so then what came next? And so you decide, I want to move in that direction.

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah. So then I applied for a job at the U.S. Attorney's office in Houston here. I had one round of interviews. I hadn't gotten a second round. And then I met a guy at a South Asian Bar Association conference in San Francisco. His name is Amul Thapar. At that time, he was the United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky. Amul Thapar is the first South Asian to become a presidentially appointed, Senate-confirmed U.S. Attorney. At the time, I didn't know what that meant or the importance of that. But I knew he was the U.S. Attorney. And he also told us in this very first meeting that he had just been nominated to become the first South Asian to become an Article III judge, which was a dream of mine and my leaders in the South Asian bar. And so we were over the moon at the fact that a brown guy was finally going to become an Article III judge. But Amul said, hey, man, why don't you come interview with my office in the Eastern District of Kentucky? I said, all right, I don't know where Kentucky is, I'll figure it out, but I will go interview. And I interviewed and I was struck by the decency of the human beings that interviewed me. And I was really just like, these people are nice. And then Amul Thapar offered me a job. And, um, when you're the son of a cab driver, a bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush, and you move. And so I moved my small family, my young son, my pregnant wife. I quit my law practice. I took the Kentucky job. We sold the house and we moved to Kentucky so I could become a federal prosecutor. But so that's how it happened. So it happened because of a whole host of reasons, the South Asian bar. It happened because I was open to it because of all this work I'd done. And then I was lucky enough to meet Amul and he said, come interview with me. And one thing I learned as the U.S. Attorney, the U.S. Attorney is the sole person who gets to hire. I.e., that U.S. Attorney can pick who they want to hire. And so it's not lost on me now, especially as the U.S. Attorney, how much Amul Thapar's influence was in me becoming a federal prosecutor. But for him, I don't think I'd be one. I don't think I was good enough to be hired, and he used his discretion. But frankly, I'm so glad that Amul took a chance on me. So that's how I became one.

Khurram Naik: Can you say some more? I think what's really fascinating in people's stories is the personal dimension that drives their professional choices. So I don't think we can talk about your story without understanding how is it that you as a family decided, hey, we're all in this to take this risk, because it's a risk. You know, you had your private practice in Houston, your wife was working there as well. Right. That's a lot to move. And by the way, my family, again, very similar story. My parents identified that they wanted to get us to a really great school district in New Jersey. So they knew that was the move. That's why we moved from Texas to New Jersey. So my family also uprooted. My dad had his own business and his own clients in Houston and had to get new clients in New Jersey. And so it was a huge — a lot to give up, a lot of opportunity cost. So how did you as a family decide that that was the right move? Because there's a lot — you know, before we were talking about something that was low risk, hey, doing this work on the side, whatever. Now there's a risk involved, selling that. Yeah, it's a big one, putting everything up, leaving your law practice, you know. Tell me some more about that.

Alamdar Hamdani: I know. So I remember I interviewed with Kentucky. My wife was unhappy about me going to Kentucky to interview, and I told her, honey, don't worry about it. Guys like me don't get jobs like that. And I was serious. I was like, there's no way I'm going to get this job. And then I remember it was a Tuesday. Amul Thapar calls me up and offers me the job. I call my wife, and she is not happy. And you could cut the tension in the air with a knife, whatever. And the next day my wife says, I need to tell you something. So it's Wednesday. She says, I'm pregnant with our second child. And I was like — I was so afraid that if I saw that child's face, I wouldn't take the risk. So on Thursday, I called up Amul and accepted, without my wife's okay. So to answer your question, I am married to the most amazing human being, literally. She was not happy. I was in the doghouse for about a year after we moved. But to her credit and to my gift, right, she stuck by me, and she understood. We took a pay cut, a big one, we had to sell the house. Just so you know, to kind of add — the way it works is the department will tell you when you've cleared your background, and mine took forever. And then after you do that, you have to report for duty. And so they're like, you have to report for duty. So I had to report for duty in Kentucky. So I left, and I left a wife that was at that point five months, six months pregnant, a son who's about two and a half, a house to sell. She's working full time. And I head off to Kentucky to go chase my dream of becoming an AUSA. And anyway, three months later, I moved her up. And so I moved my wife up when she was eight and a half months pregnant. And so she gave birth in a town she hadn't seen until I moved her up, into a house she hadn't seen until I moved her up. And then my daughter was born in Kentucky. So it was one that I'm thankful for. Ever since then, every move, of course, I've consulted with her. But yeah, I got lucky in that she didn't leave me after that. Because I don't think most people — it's a big thing to do. And a lot of people wouldn't make that sacrifice and move up. And even to this day, I ask people to make that sacrifice and move to places like Laredo, McAllen, Brownsville, or Houston, or Corpus Christi. I think what helps is I made that move and I made that sacrifice. And I think if I can do it, I think other people can maybe see themselves doing it as well.

Khurram Naik: So I guess I'll be curious to return to that. Like, do you feel — I mean, so before, you know, we were talking about this thing that was very low risk. Now this thing that you took was very high risk. Do you feel like, in order to do big things in a career, that you have to take big risks like that? Like, what's the takeaway from the fact that you took such a significant risk and it worked out? What did you learn from that and what did you generalize from that as far as making career decisions? Like, you know, what's your point of view on taking big risks?

Alamdar Hamdani: I think sometimes ignorance is bliss. And so I took that risk not knowing what it was like to be a federal prosecutor, especially one in Kentucky, not knowing what it's like to live in Kentucky. And they took the risk on me when they hired me to go move down there. And so I do believe maybe ignorance is bliss, but also being confident in your abilities. I've always been confident that I could figure it out and get the job done. And also knowing I'm going to screw up along the way. And figuring out how to be tough on myself, but not too tough on myself, so that I can keep moving forward. So a lot of people will mess up and maybe want to quit. I've never been that. And so I think that helps. I've never been somebody who's just going to quit because it got too hard. And so knowing that about myself, I think helped me to make the risk. But yeah, I mean, you've got to make big risks to be hugely rewarded. But for me, I know if I make the big risk and I put in the work, I know I can get there, I have this confidence that I can get there. And so I think that's definitely my style. But like I said, part of it was just ignorance is bliss.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I like that principle. I think that sounds really helpful for a lot of people that have employers — and that's largely lawyers that are going to be listening to this. Of course, we're very cerebral, very analytical and used to doing our diligence. And I think the biggest risk as a group that we face is overthinking things.

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah, yeah. And so you've got to go through, gosh. Yeah, you do. I mean, I'll say, so I've given offers to a couple of folks to be AUSAs. And they'll overthink it. And, you know, they'll turn down the job, which I find to be incredibly fascinating. It's one thing — I mean, I get it, you know, maybe financially you can't make it work. That's one thing. But, you know, moving to a new city, like, I don't know, and they overanalyze it. I'm like, man, you just got to make that move. You just got to make it. It'll work out. Trust me. I'm picking you. That's a big part of the equation. You made it to the final interview. That's huge, right?

Khurram Naik: So I'm helping you de-risk this. You have my support.

Alamdar Hamdani: I'm helping you de-risk this. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So anyway.

Khurram Naik: But yeah. The finance bit is interesting. I mean, I don't imagine you necessarily know the full picture of these different people, you know, the different people who've chosen to be in the office or not chosen the office, or their financial history. You know, you've mentioned growing up very poor. Do you feel like, you know, that exposure that you had growing up had paved the path for you to have the financial freedom where you don't have golden handcuffs? You don't say, I have to have XYZ and a living based on Y income. I mean, what role do you feel like that's played in your path? And then the paths you've seen for people who've gone to public service or, like you say, chosen not to?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah. You know, I think when you grow up poor, it's a driver. You don't want to be poor again. I don't want to be poor. I don't want my children to be poor. But I also understand that happiness doesn't come from an $80,000 vehicle or a million-dollar home. If you take those two aspects and you realize that happiness comes from family, from the career you have, the job you have — and then being able to have a job that pays you a good enough wage to where you can, you know, buy a house, maybe not the million-dollar house, and buy a car, but not an $80,000 or $100,000 car — and you're happy with that. I think that's where poverty helps. Because you knew you were happy when your mom and dad, you know, were making less than 20 grand a year combined and paying for a $385-a-month apartment. And so you know you'll be happy if you're making, you know, a low six-figure salary as opposed to a high six-figure salary or whatever. So I think that perspective helps ease the burden of not having as much as others. But I'll say this, I have a kid going to college, you know, I really feel the pain of, like, you know, man, 15 years in public service does kind of add up at times. However, again, I know if I can make it, my son can make it too, because I made it. So I know he'll make it when he goes to college.

Khurram Naik: Yep. You talked about, you know, growing up, you were just one of a couple of kids that were not white in your high school. Tell me about the path that led you to find other South Asians or other people that were more like you that you resonated with. Like, tell me about the path to find those people professionally, or otherwise as well if you like, but I know professionally.

Alamdar Hamdani: I think — so, I didn't know many brown folks when I was growing up. When I went to college, UT had a pretty significant South Asian population. So I knew a bunch, I met a bunch more there. But I really didn't become really close friends with a whole bunch of them, nor did I do anything professionally with them. But it was after law school. So in law school, I want to say — and I've looked at all the pictures, and this is not a very scientific way — I think I'm the first brown guy on the law review at University of Houston. Right. So University of Houston doesn't have a story and history of a bunch of South Asians graduating. When I graduated from University of Houston, I think there were maybe three or four of us that were South Asian, if that, and that was it. But for some reason, after the law degree, I felt this desire to want to meet other lawyers of South Asian origin. I don't know why, but maybe because I'd finally come to my profession, that's what I'm going to do for the rest of my life, now let me find other brown folks. And so I found the South Asian Bar Association of Houston. And that's the first time I really met other brown lawyers. And to this day, those folks who started the organization are still people I talk to, I'm friends with, and then we started the South Asian Bar Association of North America in the early 2000s in the wake of 9/11. And those folks are still my friends and people I care about to this day. And so I think it was, once I knew what my career was, I looked for people who looked like me in that career. And I see it every day now when I look — you know, today, I just, before I got on the call with you, I just swore in a South Asian law student for an intern position. And I could just sense a level of comfort. And you know, even though in the U.S. Attorney's office, she just — there's just a level of, like, I get her and she gets me because we had that shared background, that shared experience. Hers is a lot different from mine. But her uncle actually is one of the AUSAs in the office. And he's also, you know, another brown guy, but a really good AUSA. But there was just a level of comfort, I think, that I sensed when I first walked into somebody's living room who was hosting a South Asian Bar Association event in 1999, if that makes sense.

Khurram Naik: Yeah. And what did it do for you? I mean, it's not like you were in private practice, like, great, I'll meet these South Asian lawyers and some of them are going to be in-house counsel and I'll get work from them, or they'll refer me matters as other lawyers in private practice. Like, what did you get out of it personally, professionally, to be associating with other South Asian lawyers?

Alamdar Hamdani: That's a great question. So, there's many reasons to join a bar organization like that, right? And I think many people joined the South Asian Bar Association for that purpose: let me get — you know, I'm doing a lot of cross-border work with India, so help me get some good Indian clients to help grow my cross-border practice. And I think that's a valid reason to do it. I didn't do it for that. So, I joined the South Asian bar. We formed the South Asian Bar Association of North America because I wanted to be part of something bigger and feel comfort from those who look like me, who were going through the same issues as me. I wanted to share my experience with other people who had the same experience as me. There was something really important for me about that. And I think the reason that worked differently for me is I was looking for mentors. I was looking, and I wanted to be like — for example, there's a guy, his name is Nandini Bezar. Nandini Bezar is a well-known Philadelphia plaintiff's lawyer. One of the most successful. I wanted to be like Nandini. He's older than me. He's a good dresser, eloquent, great trial lawyer. I was like, I want to be Nandini. But one thing I didn't do is I didn't go to Nandini and say, hey, help me develop clients. I just wanted to be like Nandini as far as being a good trial lawyer. I wanted to learn from him. And so I approached him differently than probably other people did. And because of that, I developed these relationships that were, I think, for me quite meaningful. And those relationships, I will tell you this, if it wasn't for those relationships, I wouldn't be in front of you right now. It took each and every one of them. It took Nandini Bezar. It took, you know —

Khurram Naik: Let's dive in. Tell me some more. Let's look at that.

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah, so, you know, when I did that, you know, I met, as you know, I met Amul, but I also met a guy named Paul Grewal. Paul Grewal is now a legal counsel for Coinbase. At the time, he was a big partner at a well-known firm in San Francisco. I wanted to be like Paul too. And Paul and I became friends. In fact, I became his president-elect when he was the president of the South Asian Bar Association of North America. To this day, he and I are dear friends. Through my civil rights work and through my South Asian Bar Association, we got to know a guy named Jim Ho. Jim Ho, at that point, was Chief Counsel to Senator John Cornyn. He was also quite active in the Asian American Bar Association of America, and he and I got to know each other on a really good, friendly level. Jim Ho is now on the 5th Circuit. Jim Ho, I can tell you, was a big part of me getting this job. And so you've got all these folks I met 20, 15, 10 years ago in the South Asian bar. And so those relationships — so two years ago, well, that's two and a half years ago, in December of 2020, Biden becomes president. Well, Biden's elected president. And I was like, I think I want to become the U.S. Attorney. So first of all, of course, if it wasn't for Amul, which is so important — Amul's presence, his existence. And then of course, him hiring me — if it wasn't for him, I don't think I would have given myself permission to even say this guy could put his picture up on that wall. First of all. And secondly, you know, I had friends on both sides of the political spectrum, which really I think was really helpful for me. One thing I think I pride myself on is, even though I did a lot of civil rights, civil liberties work — and I'll give you a good example. Back in the day when I was doing a lot of ACLU work, I was debating the U.S. Attorney's office, this office, and I was debating the head of the National Security Section in this office in open forums about national security policy. So at the University of Houston, at Rice, you know, different places. His name is Abe Martinez. Abe and I would debate each other. And I would always know what his argument was before he'd make it. And he would know mine. And although I did not agree with Abe, I respected him. And I think that was important for me. He probably didn't like me. I didn't like him much. But I respected what he did. The reason I say that is, when I became an AUSA — so you know, my path was Eastern District of Kentucky, five years at Main Justice at the Counterterrorism Section, and then I came back to Houston. When I came back to Houston to become an AUSA, because I wanted to come back home to Texas — and you know, being an AUSA, you're the tip of the spear, you do justice, it's fun. And I was doing terrorism work 24/7, but I wanted to be the tip of the spear again in the courtroom. And so when I applied for the job to become an AUSA in Houston, Abe Martinez had risen to become the number-two man of the office, the First Assistant. And Abe was in my interview. And to his credit, Abe hired me. Of course, I was much different than I was many years before that when I was debating him in the private sector. I had at that point seven years of federal practice, five years of the Counterterrorism Section. And so he hired me to the national security section. But the best part about that story is Abe and I would eventually teach a course for seven years at the University of Houston, until he retired, on counterterrorism. We co-taught the course together. And even to this — even as we taught it, I still learned from him. I didn't always agree with him, but I always learned from him. I say that to say, I think what helped me was I was curious. And I was curious about what Abe did. And I was always respectful. Because of that, I built these really good relationships on both sides. Jim Ho, I was curious about what he did. I didn't always agree. We didn't always agree politically, but I was respectful for what he did. Paul Grewal, all those folks. So when I threw my name in the hat to be the U.S. Attorney, it took all of those folks, giving me advice, calling people on my behalf, writing letters. It took the South Asian Bar Association and the South Asian Bar Association of North America writing letters. People I met in the Asian Bar Association and people I met before I went into public service and after. So it took a village to get this job, but it took everybody I'd met in those 20-some years. So I think if anybody is listening to this, the one thing I would always say is be kind, be respectful, no matter who you meet, stay curious as to what they do. Because if you do that, you never know, but one day they'll become your biggest ally. And they'll be the reason why you get that next thing you need or want, and they'll be there for you. And so, yeah. And to finally put a fine point on it — Amul Thapar, when I did my investiture. So at my investiture, Jim Ho spoke and gave a speech. So did a guy named Neil Vidmar — Neil is a professor at the University of Alabama, but Neil and I met when I was in the ACLU and he was the president of the ACLU of Alabama of all places. Neil is half South Asian, half white. Neil is about as far as maybe liberal as Jim is conservative. And they both spoke at my investiture; both were instrumental in me getting to this position. Every interview I had, I would prep with Neil and a couple of other buddies I had. And they would, you know, do the murder board and they would question me. We'd do mock interviews so that when I walked in, I was ready. And so you've got Jim Ho, you've got Neil, at my investiture. And finally, Amul Thapar. The first South Asian swore me in — the first South Asian to become a presidentially appointed and Senate-confirmed U.S. Attorney. So there was a nice, wonderful full-circle moment at my investiture, with Amul swearing me in, who is now, as you know, on the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, and oftentimes when the Republican is president on the short list of the Supreme Court.

Khurram Naik: So, you know, I'm not one — I think a trope is to complain about the next generation, this generation isn't going to get this or that or whatever. But something I am struck with is that, for your peers — I mean, a couple of things. One is, these people you all mentioned are incredibly successful. They've had extraordinary success. And perhaps not coincidentally, everyone was all tied together. And that was despite, you know, these significant political differences. So you know, something I wonder — I don't have an answer for this — but I feel like maybe a perverse outcome of this collective success of South Asian lawyers, let's say, is that South Asian lawyers maybe feel like they don't need that community as much anymore. And so I think, you know, the South Asian Bar Association National Conference is coming up. I'll be there. I know a lot of people will be there. And plenty of people won't be. And so I kind of wonder, you know, what would it take for people to — I think a lot of times people who have good fortune, or come into a system with some good fortune, don't fully appreciate it. So I think the hard work of, you know, you and your peers has paid off. You know, you are the face of a very important part of our society. And that is groundbreaking for other people to feel like, hey, I could do that too. And so I wonder how you get people to not be complacent. I'll also note that it can't be the case that everyone — you know, the people that you graduated law school with or other lawyers in your firm — you probably were exceptional in how much you invested in those relationships. So this isn't even a common attitude, period, among any lawyers. But let's say amongst South Asian lawyers, I wonder how you can still, in this coming generation that has benefits that you didn't have, get them to double down and invest more in this community because there's more to be gained. You know, the fact that there's more of us means there's even more upside to investing in relationships. Yeah, I'm curious to get your take on how to encourage that or facilitate that.

Alamdar Hamdani: You know, I think it has to come — the desire to invest in the community and the desire to invest in those relationships has to come organically and naturally. And I'll give you an example. In 2008, I had just become an AUSA in Kentucky. And I was finishing my term as the president of the South Asian Bar Association of North America. And so come June 2008, I am done being the president. And let me tell you, I was done hanging out with brown people, I was just done. And so for a while, I just fell off the face of the earth and just focused on my growing family, focused on being a federal prosecutor. I didn't go to NASABA conferences that much. I went a few more times, but then really stopped going a few years ago. And I think I needed that too. I needed to kind of be away from it a little bit. And so for those who don't show up or don't want to come, I get that. And I think a part of it is, you've got to give yourself that space. But I'm glad I came back, or I'm glad those I called up after several years that I'd not called and talked to — to kind of pick up the phone and say, hey, man, I still got your back. I got you. I'm going to be there for you. And so I think that happened because when I was investing in the relationship, we really invested in each other. And we really, you know — either you're a part of something new, which is SABA, or you're building new levels of discourse, whether it's with me and Jim Ho, or it's a new mentor-mentee relationship with me and Amul or a Paul Grewal. You know, by the way, speaking of Grewals — Gurbir Grewal, who I know you're going to interview. You know, Gurbir Grewal was also a part of this fun, you know, early 2000s class of South Asian lawyers who were coming up. And so I do think it's — without commenting, it is interesting to see that the Grewals are both battling it out against each other, which I think tells you a lot about the South Asian community and how it's grown within the legal world, that you've got these two big litigators going at it on a big case. And then both South Asians happen to be named Grewal. So I am evidence and the result of investing in those relationships with South Asians and building those networks with South Asians and whites and other folks, and bringing them into the tent. And so, you know, again, when somebody's ready for it, it can really be helpful.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I like that. And I understand there are phases of people's lives, and people know this. So that's totally fair. Well, you know, we talked about what your goals were for this podcast, and one of the things that you said you really wanted to do was demystify the office. And because you said, hey, you know, I didn't even meet a prosecutor until some years into practice, and I would like more people to understand what this office does. And so that attracts more people, and they also have understanding about — you know, they're just more engaged in the office and understand what its role is in society. I thought maybe a good place to start that is with the mama rule.

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. So the mama rule — so my mother is 80 years old. She lives on a fixed income. She is an immigrant. She knows poverty. She is the people we protect in the Southern District of Texas. So the Southern District of Texas is made up of 44,000 square miles, 43 counties, nine million people. And it has 400 miles of border with Mexico. It is, I think, the fourth-largest district of all the U.S. Attorney's offices. And just to kind of backtrack a little bit, the DOJ, the Department of Justice, which began in 1870 as a result of African Americans who were being prejudiced by white supremacists, the Ku Klux Klan — it was created to go after those who were prejudicing African Americans, in the wake of Reconstruction. So this organization has a long history with civil rights. It is, some say, the largest law firm in the world, and some say the oldest civil rights firm in the world. So that's the DOJ. The DOJ is made up of the criminal division, the civil division — which is criminal work, civil work — there's the national security division where I worked for five years doing counterterrorism work, the Solicitor General's office, the antitrust division. And then, as I said earlier, the tip of the spear — the people who are in the courtroom — those are really run by the U.S. Attorney's offices. And there are 94 U.S. Attorney's offices, 93 United States Attorneys, and Houston is the fourth-largest of those 94 U.S. Attorney's offices. And so the work, the stuff you see on TV, the stuff you read about, is mostly going to be done by Assistant United States Attorneys in U.S. Attorney's offices. This office itself is 220 Assistant U.S. Attorneys, 147 employees. It is a big office. The mama rule says, first of all, I'm going to run this office according to the mama. And let's talk about the people we protect — people like my mother. And if you look along the border, right, you've got human trafficking, human smuggling, drug trafficking, all those crimes along the border, usually driven by the cartel. They affect my mother, the migrants. My mother's neighborhood is falling apart in North Texas because of drug trafficking. I can see it happening. My mother's often the victim of the healthcare companies you'll find along the border and in Houston — healthcare fraud, the medical center is based here in Houston. Big corporations, when they commit fraud, they take money out of my mother's pocket. When you look at gun violence, right, the gun violence is affecting especially marginalized neighborhoods like my mother's and the one I grew up in. You know, the gang violence that you see in the different parts of Houston or along the border — those are marginalized communities, usually communities of color, a community of color like my mother. And then, you know, when you look at public corruption, which I did also, so on top of national security — you know, those officials, especially, you know, you take a corrupt public official in a small county, the money they take is really small. It's just from a small pot, and you're taking money literally out of the pocket of people like my mother. And then, you know, I'm trying to protect the 9 million people when it comes to national security issues. So we have Iran, China, Russia. I would say those are the biggest national security threats we have, along with terrorism threats, traditional terrorism threats, but they're the big espionage, intelligence threats that face not only Houston, but the entire district. So you know, you've got white-collar fraud, you've got IP theft being stolen by nation-state actors, you've got the cartel, which I would say is one of the biggest national security risks we have, constantly barraging us with drugs, violence, human smuggling. And so there's that part of the mama rule. The other part of the mama rule is, I tell everybody in my office, not only do we protect people like my mother, but we're going to treat each other like we would treat our mother. So that means treat everybody with respect, being civil. The instability I saw when I was a young lawyer will not be tolerated in this office. You will treat your fellow AUSAs, your fellow trial attorneys at Main Justice, FBI agents, your agents around the country, police, defense counsel, all with that same respect. You know, when we walk into a courtroom, the judge holds us to a higher standard. There is this case, which I didn't know about until I became a prosecutor, called — Sutherland talks about — I mean, Berger versus United States. And it's Justice Sutherland who talks about the role of the prosecutor, and he says a federal prosecutor may strike hard blows. In fact, he's expected to do so, but he may not strike foul ones. We don't have the luxury of striking foul balls. And we have to always — you know, the duty of candor that we have, I think family lawyers have it there, but for us, it's paramount. It's what keeps the integrity of our system. So treat each other, treat everybody with the same respect as you would your mother, which means this Southern District of Texas, this DOJ, it's a family, for me, and I hope it's for all the people who work for me.

Khurram Naik: So that's really — I like the concise nature of that rule and how much it impacts, you know, how much it guides behavior. I guess I have a couple of questions. One is, you know, I think about — you were mentioning prosecutorial discretion, which, in my experience as a litigator, in my understanding of the office, is such a powerful force.

Alamdar Hamdani: Yes.

Khurram Naik: It's just a power that is almost unlike any other in society. And so how do you balance the bottom-up discretion of the AUSAs that you entrust in your office to exercise their judgment, with the top-down goals that you have in your directives? Like, how do you balance those two forces?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah, no, so one thing is, prosecutors, what we all have to do is we follow the facts and the law, right? We follow both of those, and that leads us to a point. And then the discretion really comes into play as to whether or not you choose to prosecute a particular case. So my priorities are all the things that I just laid out. As United States Attorney, they're also the priorities of Main Justice. So as an AUSA, one thing you understand is you carry out the priorities of the department and of the office. Now, those priorities, like I said, should always be following the facts and the law. And then using your discretion appropriately to do justice. What that means is, if a prosecutor doesn't want to follow the priorities of the office, for example, doesn't want to prosecute a particular crime, even though the facts are there, the law says you should — there is a thing called the Principles of Federal Prosecution, which all AUSAs go by. And in fact, Attorney General Merrick Garland was part of the first group that put that together when he was at Main Justice in the '70s. But the Principles of Federal Prosecution say, you know, you've got to prosecute a case that has a significant federal interest. So assume all those are there. If a prosecutor doesn't want to prosecute that case, then he's got two choices. Prosecute the case, because that's the priorities of the office and everything dictates you should — and that's what we do, despite your own personal feelings about that particular kind of crime — or you can quit, with your paycheck. And that's, I think, what we as prosecutors all know. If we're asked to do something we don't agree with, you know, we can, as long as it's not unethical or illegal or immoral, we can always make our voice heard through our paycheck. And that's kind of the way it goes. Now, you know, I don't want to make it seem like I'm just some authoritarian who says you must do as I said, because we are dictated to. So I report to the Deputy Attorney General, who is the number-two person in the department. That's Lisa Monaco. And of course she reports to Merrick Garland. So I have somebody I report to. So in the same vein, the priorities of this office should mirror the priorities of the department. But also, of course, taking into account the particular issues of this district. This district, for example, does a lot more immigration crime than any other district's going to do. This district has more prosecutors than any other district in the country, because a lot of that is driven by the border. 80% of our cases are either border or border-adjacent kind of issues, from national security all the way down to an illegal alien reentry. So hopefully that answers the question.

Khurram Naik: So you've got finite resources. Yes, it's financial, but it's finite resources. The range of aspects of your office is enormous. How do you allocate resources? These aren't apples to apples, you know, to say — how do you compare human trafficking to multi-state or nation-state actors stealing IP? How do you allocate resources among these totally non-fungible problems in society, or issues in society? How do you figure out, hey, this is a priority, or this is what we need to shift our attention to for some period of time and resources? Like, how do you allocate that?

Alamdar Hamdani: That's always a constant issue for me as a U.S. Attorney. So, you know, one of the things I didn't have to worry about when I was an AUSA was any of that. And so coming in as the U.S. Attorney, this is something I've had to learn how to manage. How do I manage it? I manage it with a team of incredibly talented executives and managers and supervisors. I'm not constantly moving bodies around, but I am constantly aware and cognizant of the issues and how they're changing. For example, I'll tell you a big thing that I have focused on, that I didn't know was a focus until I became the U.S. Attorney, but I see as one, is gun trafficking. And this is something that's probably more unique to the Southern District of Texas. It's trafficking of guns into Mexico. And because that fuels the work of the cartels. And that fuels the deadly ways of the cartels, but also fuels the ability to do what they do, which is everything from smuggling to drug trafficking across the border into the U.S. And so, you know, I have really taken that as a priority. So one of the things I'm making sure is, when I hire new people, you know, how can I make sure I beef up that part of the portfolio. Another thing I'm looking at, for example, is, you know, PPP fraud is huge right now. It wasn't even huge three years ago — it didn't exist. But now it's huge. And it takes up so much of our resources, but we can't ignore those. Even those that are smaller compared to the multi-billion-dollar things that maybe an SDNY does. We've got to deal with them here. We've got a whole bunch of it. So I've got to figure out how can I move somebody who's ready for fraud — it doesn't take, you can't be a new AUSA, it has to be someone more seasoned — and put them in there. So it's a great question. It's one I'm constantly struggling with. Also, you know, a lot of our cases are worked with law enforcement, with agents. And so they have limited resources as well. And so it's a constant — it's a Rubik's Cube. I'm trying to figure out how do I take what they have, understanding their different limitations, their priorities, and match them up with mine, so we can go after the bad guys. One thing we're doing right now in Houston, we're going after gangs. Gang violence in Houston. These are gangs that are in, you know, communities of color, mostly African American communities and Latino communities. And so one thing we have done is teamed up with Main Justice to have them surge resources of AUSAs from other districts, or trial attorneys, to come in and help us build these cases, which are big cases, and really kind of lower the murder rate in Houston. Right now, the murder rate, to give you some context, is 500 a year. Pre-COVID, it was 220. So we really have a murder problem. And that doesn't even take into account all the people who survive, because we have a vibrant medical center. So a lot of people get shot and survive. And so a lot of people get killed, but again, a lot get shot and survive. So we've got violence that I think is much higher than it was before. And so I've got to figure out a way to kind of surge resources to bring that down. So anyway, it's a great question and it's a constant puzzle.

Khurram Naik: Is there something causal about COVID and the pandemic that disrupted some social dynamics that you're noticing? What's the connection you draw?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah, I don't know. I think there is. I think there has to be, in that you've got less people either working or at home. And that has a societal effect which may have caused the increase, for example, in violent crime that we see in parts of Houston. It's, yeah. So the world is certainly different than it was in 2019. In fact, it seems hard to even think of 2019.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I agree. So with the range of crimes that you've prosecuted — you already had exposure to a different set of crimes in the Eastern District of Kentucky, so you have a sense of the range of issues that an office prosecutes and the impact that has on society. And of course, you're in a different venue now. And like you say, it's a different era. It's not apples to apples. But what has really changed your perspective on what's a more important issue than you ever realized, or what do you think people in our session don't understand is an underrated issue, that you've observed from your vantage point that other people haven't had the ability to observe?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah. Two — one is, actually when I became the U.S. Attorney, something I didn't fully appreciate, and I talked about it earlier, is the cartels, the Mexican cartels in my district. The Mexican cartels for both the Southern District and the Western District of Texas, really — and to some extent the Eastern District of Texas — they are, I believe, one of the biggest national security threats we have in the U.S. They don't care about lives. They don't care. All they care about is money, profit. They will do anything and everything to make it happen. So human smuggling, big one. You know, we are seeing an increasing amount of tractor-trailers turning over, and you see 50, 40 people dead in the back of a truck trailer. The cartel hires some young kid, gives them a few hundred bucks and says, drive. And when the police show up, you drive faster, which means that truck's probably going to turn over. You see the cartels — what they do in Mexico is they've realized if they put fentanyl in drugs, it creates a much stronger addiction for the addict, a quicker high. And fentanyl, you know, just enough on my finger can kill a human being. So that's problem number one. But, you know, they're also in the business of exporting normal drugs — say, for example, you know, Adderall or whatever, oxys. They're making them with the same facilities as they're making the fentanyl-laced products. So the trouble is, the fentanyl is now going into pills of oxy or pills of Adderall. And so what happens is now what we're seeing is children dying, 14-year-olds who are trying oxy for the first time dying. And the cartel does all of that. But then the other big part of it is, on the other end of the spectrum, one thing I didn't focus on but I think is white-collar fraud — in Houston, I think there's a lot of it. And it's one, you know, my office, whether it's the stealing of technologies — you know, we've got academic institutions, we've got medical facilities, you know, you're seeing ransomware attacks on hospitals, such that, you know, unless you give them money, the patient information's going to disappear, or even worse, you know, somebody's going to die unless you give them the money — hospitals lose power, for example. And so, you know, one thing I'm trying to battle is, how do I, first of all, get the hospital or the corporation to report it? They're scared to report it. They're scared if they report it, it's going to get worse for them. And then secondly, how do we have agents and AUSAs smart enough — this is really hard stuff to figure out — to do this work? I mean, this is cutting-edge, you know, technologies. How do you put it together? And how do you go after the bad actors that are domestic, but international as well? So those are things that definitely didn't exist in the Eastern District of Kentucky for me. But I think they really take up a lot of space when it comes to understanding the complexities of trying to fix them.

Khurram Naik: That's remarkable. I think, you know, when I hear this, you're making me want to become an AUSA. It's just the kind of work that you do. And it just is so fascinating. And it sounds very rewarding, you know, the chase and breaking cases. You know, when you work at a big firm, you're given, you know, a matter to work on, there's metes and bounds to it, you know, maybe you'll find something fascinating or pull a thread that'll lead to something interesting that happens. And it's happened to me, but, you know, that's a much shorter thread. And so I think that's fascinating to hear. I also am curious, you know, on a national level, because I imagine the 93 U.S. Attorneys have a dialogue and exchange information. What's your view on trends nationally in enforcement? So what are trends you're observing that, you know, lawyers listening to this should be attuned to and thinking about in advising their clients or, you know, protecting their clients from heading down the wrong direction? What are the trends you're seeing nationally?

Alamdar Hamdani: Yeah. So, you know, I'll kind of give you some insight into how U.S. Attorneys operate at the U.S. Attorney level. So within the DOJ, there is the Attorney General's Advisory Committee, which consists of about 12 U.S. Attorneys. All presidentially appointed, Senate confirmed — because there are some U.S. Attorneys who, for whatever reason, are either acting U.S. Attorneys or appointed by the court, because the Senate hasn't confirmed the U.S. Attorney for that particular district. So usually all the U.S. Attorneys on the AGAC, if I'm correct, are usually presidentially appointed, Senate confirmed, maybe there's a couple that aren't, but I think — and then within the AGAC, of which I'm a part, there are subcommittees. And so I serve on subcommittees, and that's where policy is made within DOJ and that kind of sets the priorities of the department, along with what the Attorney General sets down as priorities through the DAG. So I serve on the White Collar subcommittee, I serve on the National Security subcommittee, I serve on the Border and Immigration subcommittee, which I vice chair, and I'm also on — there's one more committee, oh, the Controlled Substances one, which is drugs. So from my perspective, looking at that, one of the biggest trends I'm seeing is, first of all, on the corporate fraud side. So, you know, one of the things you're seeing — hopefully, I want to say this, hopefully we can get more corporations to come and self-report to us as to what they're seeing. And so we've been interested in new ways to entice corporations to do that, because what we're seeing is, you know, corporations kind of want some sort of comfort level that says, if I come in and self-report, you know, will I get something for that? And so there's a policy called Voluntary Self-Disclosure that's been put in place to help do that, not only on the domestic side, but also on the FCPA side. So, you know, one thing I'm seeing a lot of, a growing trend, is in FCPA work. And, you know, you're seeing some case law coming out that's actually more favorable to the defense than to the government on the FCPA side, making it a little more difficult for us to do our jobs. But, you know, the more international our community gets, the more FCPA work we get. And the more, you know, other countries don't care about corrupt practices, the more we're kind of seeing that as well. So you've got that. On the national security front, I can tell you a big, big thing we're seeing is what we call disruptive technologies. So take, for example, technologies to create weapons for the Russians to attack Ukraine. That technology, oftentimes, if you were to get it, has American components in it. And so right now there is a thrust to go after those who are giving those parts to nation-state actors like the Russians. The Russians, what they will do is they will use shell companies to actually purchase the company that makes the product. And sometimes the company may not know that they're being owned by a Russian shell company. So they can get that. And so that's one thing we're really focusing on. In the same vein, China is really good at stealing IP, whether it's through cyber methods, or whether it's through recruiting scientists to come over into China, you know, and give the IP. But they're really good at stealing the IP and then reverse-engineering it. And so that's another part of disruptive technology. So, you know, everything from nanotechnology issues, you know, technology that makes rockets go up in the air, technologies that power, you know, generative AI issues — all that's going to be something we as a department are going to focus on. We're going to focus on making sure those technologies aren't getting into the wrong hands. Houston is a big part of that. Houston, again, with its huge medical complex, huge research facilities, huge universities, and large corporations — oil and gas corporations — that do a lot of work, especially with Russia. I know my people are focused, and so are the agencies. I'm making sure we disrupt any of those crimes. Does that kind of give you an idea?

Khurram Naik: Yeah, that's very helpful. So in these subcommittees, are you in any way an advocate? Are you advocating for, I believe this should be bumped up, and I think it should be a higher priority? You specifically, in that capacity?

Alamdar Hamdani: I am. Okay. I am.

Khurram Naik: So you just described all these things. Are you describing things that you've been advocating for, or you've observed?

Alamdar Hamdani: So both. So it's both what the department has advocated for and myself as well. And I think because of my national security background, I'm able to speak a little bit more intelligently about, for example, disruptive technologies and nation-state actors. And so because of that, I can be kind of a better advocate than maybe somebody who doesn't have my background. So one of the things I'm doing as the U.S. Attorney to demystify is really trying to get out there in the community. This, what we're doing now — you know, when you called me up and asked me, you know, you had me at hello, because I think what you do is providing an incredible service. You know, I am not as dynamic nor as smart a speaker as can be, but what I can do is at least give some insight into what the U.S. Attorney does. So I'm always out there, either traveling or part of the community, just trying to share more about what we do.

Khurram Naik: What are you optimistic about in the coming year, let's say on a 12-month time horizon, from either your office or, you know, the legal community you're a part of? What are you optimistic about?

Alamdar Hamdani: A couple of things. So first of all, you know, one thing I have seen that's encouraging along the border is, as it relates to — so there's a thing called Title 42, which went away in May. And when it went away, everybody was afraid that there was going to be a surge of migrants coming across the border trying to get in. There hasn't been. In fact, I've seen a downtick in the amount of migrants coming across the border. And what I'm optimistic about is that that will continue. Why is that important? When migrants come across at any part except a legal port of entry — and if you go down to Laredo right now or McAllen, it's 118 degrees on the border — when they come across that border and they're crossing ranchland or trying to traverse the Rio Grande River, they are putting themselves and their families in danger. When they get into the back of a massive truck, right, and pay the cartel a few thousand bucks, all their life savings, to get across that border, putting their families at risk — the fact that I'm seeing less of that I think is a great thing. Not only for our immigration system, which I think we all would agree, you know, whether legislatively or through more bodies, needs help, right? It's a delicate fabric at times, when it comes to look how many people we've got in detention, how many people are here without status, how many people are being detained for years. The less people that come in through illegal means, or without going to the port of entry, the safer I think our communities are in general, including those who are migrants. So that I am optimistic about. It doesn't mean I take my foot off the pedal when it comes to making sure I've got the resources on the ground to deal with those who come into the U.S. and commit crimes, get kicked out, and try to come back again. Those we will always seek to deport, or go after the human smugglers. That's one thing on the domestic side. The second thing I think I'm optimistic about, hopefully, is, you know, on the domestic terrorism front, I am hopeful — although I don't know — I'm hopeful that the temperature when it comes to rhetoric gets tamped down, such that we see less domestic terrorism, less domestic violence happening as a result of people's political views. I'm hopeful for that. You know, I am a guy who went after terrorists internationally. I always think that's always going to be a huge threat to our nation, along with those who want to take away our technologies or harm us using spies and illegal means. But I'm hopeful maybe that the temperature will be tamped down. I don't know. I mean, 2024 will, I think, tell us a lot. So we'll see. Maybe I'm being a little too Pollyannaish about that. We'll find out. But either way, I always have the resources there. So anyway, hopefully that gives you some ideas.

Khurram Naik: Yeah. And look, you do have this very demanding job, and you know, these are weighty issues you're talking about that are on your mind. And so I read a little profile of you in a swimmer magazine — I got the title wrong maybe — but tell me about what took you to swimming, what you love about it, and what's your routine?

Alamdar Hamdani: Sure. So what took me to swimming is, I was a runner. I got injured. I was running about 90 miles a week, marathoning.

Khurram Naik: Too much.

Alamdar Hamdani: Too much. Right? On a 40-something-year-old body at that time. So I finally really got injured, messed up my knee. And so my kids were swimming, age-group swimming at the time. This is now eight years ago, where they were age-group swimming with a club team. And I never took them to a meet. So I was like, I don't see the point. But then I was like, I need a sport, because when you're running 90 miles a week, you're obsessive about something. There's something broken inside of you that needs that fix. And so I joined the master's team of my kids' club swim team. And it was phenomenal. First of all, I was able to keep my suits the size they were. I was able to stay fit. I got fast, but more importantly, I really just found a new community of friends. And, you know, when you're swimming, you're in lanes, and you're with similar people. Hopefully your speed, but you see people that are faster and slower alongside you. You get to know them. And so I started taking my kids to swim meets. And they became really good age-group swimmers themselves. It was all a blessing in disguise for me to get injured. And so now my kids are both — my son's going to run track and cross country at the University of Texas, which I don't think he would have done. He became a great athlete from swimming. He certainly became a runner because I loved running. And it was one thing I could teach him how to do. And my daughter too is an incredibly gifted runner, but also a good swimmer. And I myself, even this morning, you know, I ran. So my routine is, I ran this morning, got up, ran about five and a half miles, went to the weight room, and then hit the pool for about half an hour. And then sometimes it's an hour and a half, depending on how much time I have. But it's one thing in this position that is becoming increasingly more difficult. But part of my routine is to swim or run at least every day.

Khurram Naik: That sounds like a hell of a workout routine. So I've got to get on your level. As an activity, how does swimming compare to running? I mean, running can be individual, can be in isolation, can be social. And swimming, maybe a little more social, because necessarily you're in this pool together. And then just the action itself — you know, there's something meditative to both of them, but they're a little bit different. So how did it compare for you?

Alamdar Hamdani: Oh, I mean, for sure, running is a lot more fun than swimming, in that there's more to see, right? It's a lot more fun. Maybe it's a little more engaging. When you're in the pool, you know, your life is in 25-meter increments and flip turns, and another 25 meters. And so it's a little different. And your rest is a lot shorter when you swim. So running — when I ran this morning, you know, it was 82 degrees, 90% humidity, awful. But I had everything to keep me busy. I'll tell you one of the great things about working for the United States: I got to go to Europe on the State Department's time when I was at the Counterterrorism Section, for 10 days. We covered six countries in 10 days. I went to Germany, France, Belgium, Sweden, a couple of other countries, Denmark. And I ran a hundred miles in those 10 days. And so I got to see parts of Europe I never would have seen, right? I got to see, remember, you know, at six o'clock in the morning, the sun coming up over Notre Dame. So I think definitely running has provided me more stimulation.

Khurram Naik: Okay. I haven't had any interest in running in a long time, but you've just bumped up my interest in running.

Alamdar Hamdani: There you go. Just now. There you go.

Khurram Naik: Well, I think we covered a lot. And it's just a super interesting story about your trajectory and what's led to you, what are the impulses that have propelled you forward. So really appreciate you taking the time to share your story here.

Alamdar Hamdani: Thank you, Khurram. Thank you so much for doing this and for having me on, man. It's been a pleasure talking about all this stuff and getting to know you a little bit better.

Khurram Naik: Thanks. Thanks, buddy.