My guest today is Kenneth Anand, the former general counsel of Yeezy, co-founder of the fashion licensing company 380 Group, and co-author of Sneaker Law, a casebook covering all things sneakers. I am not a sneaker person, and only a bit more than a casual Kanye fan, so I wasn't sure where our conversation would go. I couldn't pass up meeting someone who has done what he has, and we ended up ranging across the sneaker industry and how it intersects with hip-hop and other cultures. What kept striking me was Kenneth's humility and how checking his ego opened doors for him.

Top Insights

  • Kenneth spent about a year trying to break into the music business as a producer before deciding to go to law school to protect and advocate for creatives.
  • He showed up to his first day of law school in a powder-blue Nike tracksuit and quickly realized none of his classmates looked like him.
  • His real edge as a fashion and sneaker lawyer came from being a genuine fan first: he already knew Yeezy's releases and Kanye's business inside out before he ever worked there.
  • Sneaker Law is independently published, printed by a shop the authors found in Sofia, Bulgaria, and it is already mandatory reading at several law schools, with Parsons picking it up for its outgoing students.
  • Drop culture generates the buzz, but Kenneth argues it is a small slice of revenue; it is Nike's wider general releases, not the hype drops, that keep the company afloat.
  • Setting ego aside and networking sideways rather than only "up the food chain" is what led to his partnership with co-author Jared, and, he says, to more success and more rewarding work.

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Full Transcript

Khurram Naik: This is Khurram Naik with Khurram's Quorum. My guest is Kenneth Anand, the former general counsel of Yeezy, now the co-founder of the fashion licensing company 380 Group, and the co-author of Sneaker Law, a casebook for all things sneakers. I was excited to meet Kenneth, but I wasn't sure what we were going to talk about, because I'm not a sneaker person. I'm a bit more than a casual fan of Kanye, but I couldn't say no to meeting him, knowing what he's accomplished.

Man, I'm glad I did. We had a really sprawling conversation. We covered a huge range of topics, including the sneaker industry and how it intersects with hip-hop and other cultures, and some of the impacts and tools being developed there that are being applied elsewhere. I thought it was a really fascinating conversation, and I was struck by Kenneth's humility, by how much he's been able to check his ego, and by the advantages that brought him.

I hope you enjoy this conversation as well.

Kenneth, hey, great to see you again.

Kenneth Anand: Thanks for having me.

Khurram Naik: Okay, so when we talked last, I heard a little about your story and read about it, but I wanted to hear it again. I'm sure other people wanted to hear it again too, because it's a unique story. You grew up in a nice town in suburban New Jersey, so you're a fellow New Jerseyan. And then you went to college like you're supposed to, and you were really passionate about, remind me, you were a producer at the time?

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, I was trying to make it in the music business.

Khurram Naik: Right. And, see, this is interesting, maybe we should rewind, because we should talk about New Jersey. So I grew up in New Jersey, and we had a lot of pride about the rap that came out of our area. At the time we had Wu-Tang, we had Notorious B.I.G., and it was also the era of East Coast versus West Coast, and that heightened your awareness of the place you were from. In a lot of ways it was a really exciting time, growing up in that era in the 90s. But I always found something so strange, and I'm curious to hear about your experience, because it's something shared by other people I grew up with.

I grew up in a pretty good suburb of New Jersey. It was not fancy by any means, West Windsor and Plainsboro. Plainsboro is one side, but I went to West Windsor, which is the fancier side. We had a huge Asian population. It was 40% Asian at the time, I think it's higher than that now, and I knew that was special even if I didn't fully appreciate it. One of the interesting things about that was how prevalent hip hop was in that community. Growing up the way that I did, whether it was my family or my circumstances, that wasn't something native to me, it wasn't the core of my being, but it spoke to so many people I knew. I knew a bunch of South Asian guys who were breakdancers, and they were really good. It was fun to watch them in school, they'd put down a piece of paper or some slippery surface and dance on it, and I'd think, what is happening here? I was so fascinated by the draw that hip hop has for other communities, including the South Asian community.

So I want to hear about that. When did that first click for you? When did you first feel like, okay, this is speaking to me?

Kenneth Anand: Well, I'm a little bit older than you, so I grew up in the 80s and the 90s with hip hop. I remember my brother brought home a record of Run-DMC and Aerosmith, and it was an interesting blend of the two. He sort of chose the Aerosmith side, he went the Guns N' Roses route, David Bowie and Nirvana and all this stuff, and I chose the hip hop route.

For some reason, I identified with that more. I just felt the rhythm. I was into drums at the time. I was a very beat-oriented kid, I used to beatbox and make all kinds of weird noises as a kid. I remember that distinctly.

So I just gravitated to hip hop. And I grew up in Montclair, New Jersey, which was a very diverse town, and there was no shortage of people who were into hip hop music at that time. There was no shortage of Black people. We had a lot of Asians in the community.

There weren't that many South Asians, so naturally there was a group of kids that I hung with and we were all into hip hop. We were like the UN. It was like the melting pot. And hip hop was something that kept us all bound together.

I started making beats in high school, and that was something I kept doing through college. I had a band in college. We used to play at frat parties and I produced the music. And I had this pipe dream about breaking into the music business after college.

So I moved back in with my parents and I would go into the city and take meetings at record labels. It was super frustrating. Number one, breaking into the music business is not easy. Number two, it was harder when you're trying to break into hip hop as somebody who's not Black, at the time especially.

And then number three, my parents were big proponents of education. So they were like, all right, what's next? When are you going back to school?

Khurram Naik: And how long until you did that?

Kenneth Anand: It was about a year. I took a solid year off to try to make it in the music business, and I had some mild success. But then I thought, I had a very strong relationship with creative people. My brother is a creative and I had a bleeding heart for advocating for them. So why not, if I'm struggling to make it in the music business and I see the plight that creatives have, why not go to law school and try to protect and advocate for their rights? That was what initially drew me to law school.

Khurram Naik: And this is a story I want to get to. Tell me about the outfit you rolled into the first day of law school in.

Kenneth Anand: Well, I had no lawyers in my family. I had no real barometer for how law school should be or what the first day looked like. So I rolled up the first day of law school wearing my typical streetwear, which at the time was a powder-blue Nike tracksuit.

And it didn't take long for me to look around and realize that none of my colleagues and classmates looked like me. That was the first thing that struck me as different about law school. I had to completely change how I presented myself in order to be a part of this legal community.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I'm trying to picture if anybody dressed like that.

Kenneth Anand: I mean, probably some people did. I think it's much more prevalent now, streetwear is everywhere.

Khurram Naik: Yeah.

Kenneth Anand: And that was one of the things, and we can get into this later, but my whole path was realizing that as a kid, I had all these interests in subcultures like hip-hop, video games, and sneakers that now are massive, multi-billion dollar industries. And for some reason I thought that I was different, that maybe this wasn't the correct path for me.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I think it's interesting that you did persevere, because I definitely had some of my most entertaining, genuinely fun and funny people, people who were probably creative, that I didn't think about in those terms. They didn't stick it out. They were just part of the scene that you described, and it never worked out for them. So props to you for pushing through. How did you push through?

Kenneth Anand: Well, I don't want to say that I always pushed through. I sort of had an awakening in my later years, once I'd built a comfortable career for myself, and I talk about this often.

I very much had to assimilate, number one, to be part of law firm culture. Nobody was wearing streetwear in law firms. I was a litigator and a transactional attorney, so at times I would have to go to court and wear suits, and I had no problem with that.

I enjoyed dressing up in a suit. I liked the look. The ideal of being a successful lawyer in New York City was sort of this Harvey Specter character that I very much fantasized about and glorified. So there was part of that that was really exciting to me. And also I had to pay off my student loans, so I had financial concerns.

Being a successful lawyer was obviously a goal of mine. But as I started to feel more comfortable in my role, I started to remember, who was this guy before he got to law school, and what does he want to do with the rest of his career? I started to realize that I had some clients that completely intersected with my passions, and that was fashion, streetwear, sneakers, hip hop, and entertainment. How can I do more of that and be who I am to them? Because they really liked the fact that I had all these experiences and backgrounds in what they were doing, in addition to my experience as a lawyer.

So one of the things I try to tell people when they come to me and ask how I broke into this business and got to do what I'm doing today is, I just woke up and remembered who I was. I was this fun-loving kid who had all these interests that were now a little bit more mainstream than they used to be, and I realized that I could do a great job making a career of it.

Khurram Naik: You've benefited from how much more mainstream this interest has gotten. I'm curious, what if it still wasn't that interesting? Where would you be right now? I think it's a point of reflection, how do you warrant chasing after the things you're really interested in even in the absence of that mainstream appeal? Let's say someone is at the frontier of what's niche. So what advice, now that you've experienced the changes and been able to know yourself better, how would you advise someone who's feeling that way, feeling like, okay, I'm into this new thing and who knows if it will ever get as popular as, say, streetwear has gotten?

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, I think people define success in different ways. It just so happened that the sneaker industry is like a $90 billion industry and I saw a way to meld my passion for it with what's going on now. But I would say if you're excited about something, go after it. I just saw this quote from Rick Rubin today that I posted on my Instagram. It said, it doesn't matter whether other people find what you do interesting, the important thing is that you find it interesting. And I think if you're doing something that you love, then there's success in that, whether it's monetarily successful or not.

That's obviously easier said than done when you have loans and all these other responsibilities. But we were all individuals with unique experiences, passions, interests, and hobbies before we got to law school. Why should law school beat that out of us? Why do we have to go through this ringer where all of a sudden we've entered some factory where we're just cookie cutter lawyers, trained to be a certain way and to relinquish all of our outside interests so that we can be the best lawyers we can be?

In fact, it's our outside experiences that make us the best lawyers we can be, as long as we learn how to merge the practice of law with those experiences.

Khurram Naik: So can you talk a little about that? I can see behind you you've got this extensive sneaker collection. What are the ways that you, as a consumer, have informed how you counsel your clients? Are there examples you can share?

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, absolutely. Being a fan and a consumer, first of all, helped me immensely. For example, when I showed up at Yeezy on the first day, I knew everything there was to know about the company. Its releases, Kanye West as a rapper, a producer, a fashion mogul, everything, and that's just from my pure enjoyment of Kanye and his various business endeavors. So when I started getting exposed to the inner workings of the company, it was like I had an immediate leg up. I think being a fan and a consumer is something that we sometimes write off as childish, something you have to grow out of, but for me it was essential. It was essential for me to understand the hip hop business.

It was essential for me to understand fashion. It was essential for me to understand streetwear, all the things I craved and consumed. And now what I'm trying to do, along with my co-author, Jared, is tell people that we can educate them on the business side. You can take something you're passionate about and put all of your energy into as a hobby and as a fan, and actually make a career out of it.

And it doesn't have to be sneakers. It can be video games, it can be NFTs, whatever it is that you're interested in, there can be a niche for it. And law doesn't have to be one pathway to success.

Khurram Naik: Since you mentioned your co-author, talking about your book then, I think it's interesting because your book does seem to reflect this perspective you have about moving beyond just the strictly legal components, not being a cookie cutter problem solver but really being able to see the big picture. It helps so much how passionate you are about the business and the culture, to really be able to penetrate it and get insights. Your book is beautiful. There are many departures from a typical law school casebook, but it's interesting that you landed on the traditional aesthetic for the cover. You can see the differences right away, but that's cool.

Kenneth Anand: That was the goal. The goal was that when you see it on a shelf you recognize it as a legal textbook, but then when you open it, it completely blows your mind.

We have a logo for Sneaker Law that's inspired by Yeezus, which used a Metallica-style font, something that a lot of people relate to and connect with. But the rest of the cover, other than the fact that it's in this beautiful red foil stamping, is exactly like a civ pro book might look. And then you open it and it's full color, it's got a shoelace for the bookmark. We want people to fall in love with textbooks again and not return them to the bookstore when they're done, this is something that should sit on your coffee table for a long time.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, and what's interesting is how much more entertaining content you put in here. Just to give a breakdown of different designers, I think that stuff is so huge, because it reminds me of the books we used in high school or maybe middle school, and how they were structured. They put a lot of entertaining things in there, and that mattered, because then I would just sit and thumb through the science textbooks, and I don't think I was that rare in doing that. I'd think, this is pretty interesting how you presented this. That stuff really boosts your attention. So from a pedagogical stance, is that how you say it?

Yeah, I just think it's a really good tool, because it's going to help people wrap their heads around it. Okay, I've had an interest in the business of hip hop and I know a couple of names, and it's like, no, here are all the names of the designers you didn't know about, and all the collabs they've done, and all the history. So you need to step up your game, because this is something you need to get more systematic about.

But let me ask you about that. The kind of creative or persona in hip hop can really range these days, man. It's grown so much. From my perspective, as an anthropologist of hip hop, you can have people who are more casual about it or more intense about it. There's this huge range. So tell me, with this book, which of those two are you targeting, if any? And tell me more about who this is going to speak to, and who's going to jump up and do something because they read this book.

Kenneth Anand: Sure. Well, hip hop culture is obviously deeply infused in sneaker culture and vice versa. So when we wrote the book, we obviously wanted to speak to some of that community. But sneakerheads are not limited to hip hop heads. So we really wanted to write this for people who had an interest in sneakers. The goal is that when you're done with this book, you know everything you need to know about the sneaker business, or at least you've scratched the surface of it, and you have a pathway for success in whatever aspect you want to go into.

For lawyers, if they're reading this, it's essential that they read the design section. It's essential that they read the manufacturing section. It's essential that they read the reselling and counterfeit section, because in order to be an effective practitioner, you have to know every aspect of the business. I don't believe you can be an effective practitioner unless you really know the industry that you're working in.

You wouldn't be a corporate lawyer if you didn't understand the market or the SEC, right? So the more knowledge you can get, the more effective you can be. On the flip side, if you're a designer, why should you not know these essential areas of intellectual property law that help you protect your designs? Why are we keeping that information from designers?

And why is that information not accessible to designers in a way that actually makes sense to them, visually, culturally, and tonally? This information should not be daunting. It should not be off-putting. So we're trying to bring it all together.

If you're a lawyer, you should be able to get just as much out of the other aspects of the book as you do the legal sections, and if you're a designer, you should be able to get just as much out of the legal sections as you do the design section. So it's a tightrope to walk, but I think we've done it well, and we've already seen it having immense impact. Parsons is picking up the book in the fall for their outgoing students, and it's already mandatory reading in many law schools.

It's only a matter of time before business schools pick this up, because the sneaker business is booming. I get calls weekly from investment bankers who want to understand more about reselling, about the potential IPOs, and what this culture is all about, and how they can benefit financially from it. So it's real. Who would have thought that something as simple as what you wear on your feet could bring in so many different aspects of business, design, law, celebrity, athletes, and so on?

Khurram Naik: I guess it's interesting to think about, because I know you've practiced in different areas beyond consulting for shoe companies or similar brands. From your vantage point, do you think that lawyers in the field of fashion, or the kind of fashion that you touch on, or sneakers specifically, are more intertwined with the business relative to other fields? Do you feel like you can parcel it out more, or maybe not? I'm just curious.

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, I think in order to be an effective fashion lawyer, you do have to know the industry, you do have to be fairly intertwined with the business, and you have to keep abreast, because it's always changing. Fashion is super rapid. What's hot today is not going to be hot tomorrow. So I do think in order to be a successful and effective fashion attorney, you have to be very intertwined with the business.

Whether or not that's the case for other industries, perhaps. I've practiced employment law for a very long time, and I had to understand what was going on in the employment industry. So I think understanding the way businesses are changing is important no matter what discipline you're practicing. For example, if you missed the wave on the Fair Labor Standards Act, you would not be an effective advocate to your employment law clients, because they might not be paying their employees the right way, or you might not be able to defend them if they get involved in an employment lawsuit.

I think in order to be an effective practitioner, we must lean more heavily on business. This is something that actually was never taught to me in law school, and I think law schools are now looking at the way they groom their students and prepare them to be more effective in the workplace. In fact, there's a lot of discourse about this going on, on LinkedIn, on Clubhouse, on all these other social media spaces, about what makes an effective lawyer. Is it the academia we're teaching them?

Is it this age-old way of taking a look at law, the way your professors cram it down your throat, or is it much more adjunct driven? Is it much more practice driven? Is it much more business driven? For me, it's certainly the latter.

In fact, when I started working at Yeezy, I went back and got my business degree, an executive MBA, just so I could be a more effective businessperson and lawyer. I just think it's essential.

Khurram Naik: And are there any tangible examples of how the things you thought about changed as a result of that education?

Kenneth Anand: Absolutely. Number one, for me to grow in the company at an executive level, if I was just looked at as a lawyer, then I would be stuck in my general counsel role. For the opportunities that I have today and growing my fashion business, my business acumen and the things I've learned along the way about being an effective businessperson are real. Sometimes lawyers are pushed down a path where it's like, let the business people do their thing, let the lawyers do their thing. I'm not saying that you have to be a jack of all trades, but if you allow business to seep into your life, if you educate yourself on the business aspects just as much as the legal, I think you can have a very varied career. And who knows what opportunities might open up for you.

Khurram Naik: So one thing I'm wondering, when you say that the legal education is falling short and your book is a contribution to it, what do you see as the effect of your book on the professional or up-and-coming people who are interested in sneaker law or entering the sneaker industry? What's the projected impact you think it's having, in three to five years?

Kenneth Anand: So what we're seeing right now, the first reaction is shared by professors and students alike. It's cool, it's relevant, it's hip, we're teaching the same topics you learn in an IP class, we're teaching the same topics you learn in an employment class, but we're doing it through this exciting lens of sneakers. So there's this excitement around it and this cool factor to it. But I think it goes a little bit deeper than that, because all we're trying to do is shake up the way people learn these topics, to make it more engaging, more accessible, and more relevant for students coming into law school now who don't relate to these age-old textbooks. We're not saying we're changing the textbook game, but we certainly set out to disrupt it a little bit in how we present our topic.

I think law school is in this period right now where most of the last year and a half has been remote. Students are looking at their investment and wondering when they'll get the return on it. There are more and more lawyers in the field today, so jobs are scarce, and it's harder to set yourself apart.

You have to be more effective as a lawyer faster. People don't have the time or the resources to educate you and groom you the way they did in law firms. So we're just trying to speed up that process and say, okay, if you want to be an effective practitioner, here are the basics, here are the basics for the business. And let's get you excited about these topics so that you can go out and learn more on your own.

Khurram Naik: And going back to something from earlier, I'm kind of fast-forwarding over this. You were talking about the overlap between hip hop and sneaker culture. You said there's a total overlap. So what are the not-hip-hop influences on sneaker wear, in aesthetic and culture?

Kenneth Anand: Sure. I think there's massive skate culture influence on sneakers, and sneakers have massively influenced skate culture. There's just pure athleticism and sport in general. Not every athlete is into hip hop culture, right? So there are performance running shoes and sneakers.

And then there's the celebrity component that's not necessarily all hip hop driven. There are tons of collaborations with celebrities that have their own sneaker line. There's fashion. For example, a lot of people don't know this, but Stella McCartney, whose general counsel I know very well, has released more sneakers than people even know about. You might not interact with Stella McCartney if you're a hip hop head or just a sneakerhead, but you might interact with them if you have a certain sense of style, a certain brand identity, if you're interested in eco-friendly, cruelty-free, sustainable products. All these speak to different areas.

The sneaker industry is always looking to target these different areas. It's not just hip hop driven. Sometimes when we look at sneakers, we think, every sneakerhead has to be wearing a pair of Jordans or Yeezys, so obviously this is hip hop driven. It's much, much bigger than that.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, that's really fascinating to think about, because then you can think about really distinctive sneakers in lots of other places. The first thing that popped into my head was Jerry Seinfeld, you know, he's got those.

Kenneth Anand: Huge sneakerhead, huge sneakerhead, right?

Khurram Naik: There's also Ellen, right? That's another person who comes to mind. So yeah, that really is who you think about. I'd like to learn more from some more comparisons. What are the ways in which the sneaker industry is really different from other kinds of fashion? It seems like a different genre. What are the supply chain issues that are pretty different, or how they're promoted or sold?

Kenneth Anand: I mean, speaking on a high level, the footwear industry is very different from the rest of the apparel industry. It's very specific. How sneakers are developed, concepted, sampled, produced, manufactured, and then distributed is very different from how the rest of the fashion world is run. So that's first. And then the reach of sneakers as a whole is much more accessible than certain pockets of fashion. If you're into high fashion and you're into Prada or, let's say, Ferragamo, yes, they all have sneakers now, but that's not really their focus.

Sneakers are much more accessible. It's a place where everybody can jump in. You can have a pair of Stan Smiths that you love, you can have a classic Chuck Taylor, if you're into rock and roll. There are so many different areas. And fashion is the same way.

So sneakers are just a complement to the rest of your identity. Everyone has an identity through their feet. In fact, there's this saying, I make shoe contact before I make eye contact. I like to say I make sneaker contact before I make eye contact.

I'm always looking at what people wear, because I think it says a lot about them. Jared and I, when we do these lectures, we sometimes ask the students at the beginning to tell us about their favorite pair of sneakers, because we can learn a lot about a person through the type of sneaker they interact with. Somebody could show us a pair of Nike Tailwinds and we'd say, all right, you're a runner, you're definitely into training.

And then somebody could show us a pair of limited Jordans and we could say, all right, you're more of a casual sneakerhead who really cares about being part of the culture. And then somebody could show us a pair of beat-up Stan Smiths, and we're like, all right, this is somebody who's comfy, likes what they like, and runs their shoes into the ground.

So sneakers have so many different angles, and they intersect in ways that, maybe not everybody's into fashion, but I think everybody's into sneakers in some way.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I suspect there are lots of things about sneaker culture, because anything at the frontier has ideas and new ways of being pioneered there that spread to other parts of culture. There are probably some easy connections to make between drop culture and the art of artificial scarcity behind blockchain technology or NFTs. So I'm curious, can you speak a little about that? Because I feel like we've seen such a huge evolution in the past five years around drop culture. What is the modern era of drop culture? How do you date that? What do you think was the big bang of that? And what impacts has it had beyond footwear?

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, so I might be biased, but I think Kanye West was probably the most influential when it came to drop culture and mastering how that works. The way the Red October Yeezys were announced on Twitter and just took the world by storm was sort of the biggest example of drop culture at its very early stages. And now I think we've seen every brand want to get in on that, whether it's Gucci doing collabs and quote unquote dropping them, just to bring new excitement around their brands.

Drop culture is certainly here to stay. Everybody wants to see their products hit the shelves and then fly off them immediately. So everybody's looking to harness that. But then you also have to understand that drop culture is not what sustains brands.

It may be spikes in sales, but it may not keep the lights on on a day-to-day basis. Nike is very good at taking drop culture to satiate this rabid and very niche sneakerhead market. But their general releases, their more accessible and wider-release pairs of sneakers, are what keep the company afloat. Drop culture only accounts for a very small part of that company's revenue and bottom line.

So companies should look to drop culture as a way to diversify and to bring more excitement around the brand, but they shouldn't deviate from their core offerings and their core components in spite of just trying to generate hype. There has to be a greater purpose to a brand, and we're seeing that come to life in many different ways. You can't take away Adidas's core component, which is soccer, European football, but they've also been wildly successful with Yeezy. Or Pharrell's Human Race line. It only accounts for a very small piece of the puzzle. So drop culture is massive, and we see, because of this year's frenzy around it, that it generates the most buzz.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, that's really interesting, to understand how drop culture ties into other lines of business, and like you say, it's a tactic, but not something entire companies are dependent on. So with that in mind, what's the low-hanging fruit you see outside of the sneaker world, where you see a type of industry that's ripe to use this?

Kenneth Anand: Well, we're seeing it in the NFT space, certainly, and that transcends art, it transcends digital creation, and this frenzy around one-of-one pieces that only certain people can have. And then there's this blockchain supply chain tie-in, where people know they can see where something has come from, and they know there's a link to how it will be distributed further on. So we're seeing it there, and we're seeing drop culture in the baseball card business.

I've seen more of my friends go from collecting sneakers to collecting baseball cards, because it's more lucrative and more accessible. I think the people in that industry, at least the core collectors, are a little bit more friendly. They're not so off-putting when it comes to hoarding, like sneakers, they seem to be more collaborative. So I think that's another thing. And then we can look at all the different areas these reselling platforms have diversified to, like streetwear, Xboxes, PlayStations. People don't realize it, but I was fortunate enough to get a PlayStation for my 10-year-old at Christmas, and there are people who still today in April can't get their hands on one, willing to pay 700 to $1,000 for a PlayStation on the secondary market.

So it's crazy what this reselling and drop culture has transcended into.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, part of what's interesting to think about is, a theme of this conversation has been the pursuit of your own interest. So it's interesting that the subject of the industry you've been interested in is individuality itself, right? That's the whole point of sneaker culture. And part of that is premised on there being a certain amount of doing things like other people do. If there wasn't a brand for a certain kind of person, you couldn't have that little fun game you have with Jared at the beginning of a talk, because there'd be no way of signaling if everything's just completely unique. Then there'd be no way of getting to know people. So you do have to have groups of things.

It's interesting to think about how that trend line seems unstoppable, right? The trend toward greater individuality. When you watch a movie from the 90s, pretty much every character, if they've got a job, has a suit on. No matter what the job is, everybody's got a suit on. And of course some of the point is how chafing that is. So that's a category of problems that we're putting behind us. So what are the bigger cultural impacts you think are coming as a result of this greater focus on individuality?

Kenneth Anand: I mean, look, I think it's wonderful. It's something that I'm embracing in the second phase of my career, the post-law phase, if you will. And I'm seeing it now in young law students. I'm seeing it across the business and tech sectors. It really is about what you bring to the table as an individual that makes you special, right?

These cookie cutter roles are losing prevalence, and I think that's the way it should be. When you hire somebody, you should be interested not only in what they bring to the role you're hiring for, but what they bring in terms of outside experiences and interests. We just interviewed an intern for Sneaker Law for the summer.

And the first question was, what did you do before you got to law school? Who were you before you got to law school? Because that's what we want to tap into. We want to make sure that we don't beat that out of you, and that you find some connection between what you're interested in, sneaker law, law, and all these things.

How do we put these pieces together? So individuality, I think, is key. I've certainly found a lot of success in it. And I just try to be a beacon of hope for people who come into educational spaces like law and maybe don't feel like they fit in, but who should realize that they have a much better advantage than people who just come out being the next graduate.

I think that's very relevant to your audience. How do you set yourself apart? How do you take in all the experiences you learned growing up and before you even got to law school, and then meld that with your legal education?

And I don't think that's just limited to law. I think that should be across every industry.

Khurram Naik: Yeah. Tell me about, for yourself, you talked about some things that didn't feel right to you earlier in your practice and how you found your way. Was there a moment where you really felt like, okay, I feel like myself? Was there a day that hit you? What were you wearing that day?

Kenneth Anand: I mean, I think all my life I've learned how to blend into different spaces. Montclair was a very multicultural town that I grew up in.

I had all different types of friends. I felt very comfortable around all different types of people and in all different types of social situations. So being in a law firm, I don't think, was any different.

I realized that I had to dress a certain way to be looked at as someone who fit this mold. But as I started launching my own law firm and developing my own clients and really connecting with them one-on-one, without a partner there who was responsible for that client relationship, I was responsible for it. And I realized that my way of dealing with clients was successful and they were responding well to it.

I think that's when I realized that I could be who I was. The person that I was raised to be by my parents, the person I became because of my varied interests and my backgrounds, could actually be an effective advocate for these clients no matter what their problem was. I was very compassionate. I was a good listener.

These are tools they don't necessarily teach you in law school. They don't teach you about the practice of law. They don't teach you about developing business. At least they didn't when I was graduating.

I think that's starting to change. So I realized that, and it goes beyond just the face value of what I was wearing at the time. It goes into who I am as a person and how I want to connect with my clients. And I found that to be very easy and natural for me when I was doing it on my own.

When I was with another lawyer and I had to learn from them, there were things I would have done, and there were things I wouldn't have done. It's a very individual approach. Some lawyers are effective at it and some aren't.

But again, these are skills that come from outside the academia construct.

Khurram Naik: One of the things I really loved that you included in Sneaker Law was some of the tactical advice for how people can immerse themselves in the industry. One of the things you had there was a page on networking. That's something you're not going to find in a lot of law school casebooks. And the substance of what you shared was really cool too. So can you talk a little about that?

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, I think networking has always been super important. We put it in the design section, on how to become an effective designer, but it's applicable to really everybody. The example we give is basically how Jared and I met, and it's really amazing. A lot of people coming up in the legal industry can benefit from this.

Jared was somebody who got his dream internship at Complex. He was surrounded by sneakers, surrounded by hip hop culture, surrounded by all these things he was interested in, as I am. And he didn't just sit there complacent with his legal internship. He walked around, he met the people in the company, and he actually started writing about the intersection of law and the protection of sneaker designs.

This was something nobody was doing. And I saw that, because I was researching it myself. When I saw that here was somebody writing about it, he happened to go to my same law school, and he was in my same city.

So I hit him up. Networking for me doesn't always have to be up the food chain. I don't always have to be looking for somebody who's doing better than me, somebody who has more experience than me. It's about connecting with somebody you share common interests with. So I hit up Jared and we immediately hit it off.

We talked for hours at a coffee shop until they shut the place down. I don't even know if we ordered anything. And from there, Sneaker Law was born. We started talking more and more about how we shared interests and how we wanted to do something bigger for the intersection of law and sneakers.

None of this would have happened if he didn't put himself out there and I didn't reach out to him. Had I been a little bit ego driven or had more hubris, I might have said, why should this partner at a law firm reach out to a law school intern? But we all bring in different experiences. So networking can mean anything.

And I've had great experiences with networking as long as I'm open-minded, as long as I don't go into it thinking, what can I get out of this? I think about, how can I help this person? How can we work together? That's something that will never leave me, and I practice it daily.

Khurram Naik: So the ego component is huge. I wonder how else that shows up for you. It sounds like you've been able to learn a lot as a result of putting that ego aside. Can you talk more about that?

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, I would say that's something I definitely grew into in my old age. Coming out of law school and working in a firm in the city, wanting to rise through the ranks, and then having my own law firm and being my own boss, there was obviously a lot of ego in that. There was a lot of posturing in court.

Lawyers are great at that. We love talking about ourselves. Maybe I wouldn't be that effective on this podcast if I didn't have that background, right? So I think that's part of it. But at a certain point in someone's career, I would hope you realize that we're in a community, and there's only so much we can do on our own.

I realized that if I wanted to get where I was going, I needed to be aligned with someone else who shared my interests. So I've taken that approach, and I've wised up in my old age. I've realized that I can do a lot more with others, with the help of others. That's just my approach, and it's served me very well.

And now that I try to minimize ego as much as possible, that I don't put it at the forefront of what I do, I've certainly seen a great deal more success, more personal reward, more rewarding interactions with people. It's a wonderful thing to set that aside. I'm not saying it's for everybody, but it certainly worked for me.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, that's awesome. I love it. I think that's something that's just not talked about enough, especially in this profession, which is so driven by seniority. So I think that's a really cool concept.

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, and just on that point further, I probably get at least 10 LinkedIn messages a week, and I try to respond to every one of them.

They're usually from young students who have an interest in what I'm interested in and what I've made a career out of. And I respond to all of them. I usually take informational interviews, because I remember what it was like to be in my shoes in law school and have there be nothing in front of me that I related to.

And now, I think I've personally laid out a blueprint for how you can break into an industry that was never really spoken about in law school. So I'm trying to change that, Jared's trying to change that. And the only way you can do that is by being accessible and also giving your time. Who knows, maybe that will pay off, maybe those things will pay dividends to me later on in life.

Maybe not. Maybe I've just helped somebody's day out. But I feel like it's part of my responsibility as someone senior in the legal industry, the fashion industry, and the sneaker industry to give back. And I just remember how frustrating it was, especially in the music business.

It was this best-kept secret of how to break in. Nobody talked to you about it. They would try to close every door in front of you. And if you couldn't break it down yourself, it was impossible.

So hopefully I can make that process a little bit easier for other people.

Khurram Naik: On that note, there's so much more, I was rereading The Long Tail recently and it's still an incredible read. It talks about both the reductions in the cost of distribution and production. You can see how, in other fields, the huge reductions in that back end drive the proliferation you're seeing in e-commerce with entities like Shopify, or with music, now there are new discovery mechanisms like TikTok or Spotify, or other platforms for how a small artist can break out. What are the changes you're seeing as far as more indie artists in this sneaker space? What changes or new possibilities are happening now?

Kenneth Anand: I think there are a ton. It's still fairly expensive to produce your own sneaker, but you see more and more people get into the customization business. You see more and more people get into design and have their own virtual portfolio and Instagram of designs they've done, like alternate colorways of famous sneakers. A lot of people have gotten discovered that way. Everything is going from macro to micro. Take a look at the photography industry, right? It used to be super expensive to own all this equipment, to develop your own film, and now everyone can be a photographer if they want.

They can go buy a DSLR camera, buy some lenses, and take amazing pictures, develop them at home, edit them on their own computer. The music business, no different. It used to be you had to go into a massive studio with Neve and SSL boards, you had to pay hundreds of dollars an hour to rent out an engineer. Now you have digital audio workstation software right at your fingertips, they're super inexpensive, and you can produce an album. Billie Eilish did it with her brother, living in a little home, and she won Grammys off that.

So the sneaker industry is going through that same revolution. There's 3D printing now where you can print your own prototypes. You can send those prototypes to factories overseas. They can produce your sneaker.

It's all possible. It's not all done in your own living room, but I don't think we're that far off from it. And I've seen some amazing things just getting engaged in the sneaker design space, from people who are indie and want to do this on their own and want to have their own sneakers. I've seen some really awesome designs.

I've seen some people make mistakes, like infringing on certain designs and getting burned for it. But I think it's all part of the democratization of the sneaker industry, and I think it's not far off. Version 2 of Sneaker Law will have a section devoted to this, to customization and all these breakthrough areas that really are shaking up the indie space. And we would be hypocrites if we didn't take some of that on our own shoulders.

So Sneaker Law is entirely independently published. We found our own printer in Sofia, Bulgaria. We did everything start to finish in-house. Aside from a marketing team and a really fresh Gen Z designer named El Park that we brought on to help us visually get our message out there, Jared and I did it all on our own. So this is just another inspiration to show people. You want to write a book, you want to make a sneaker, you want to drop an album, do it on your own and learn through the process, and you become more empowered.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I love that. So then, let's take a law school student. You've spoken to a lot of law school students. What is a tangible approach you say to law school students, hey, you want to do sneaker law, then do this?

Kenneth Anand: Well, first of all, we expose you to the most essential areas of law that you have to know, right? So that's the basics. You should know intellectual property. You should know employment law. You should know a little bit about corporate formation, how to start your own entities, and which entities are right for what type of business.

So we've now laid all that out for you, and that's essential. Basically, we've given you like five different law school courses for the price of one book, $99, right? So that's worth its weight in gold.

And then on top of that, in chapter two, starting your own business, we teach you how to file your own trademark, we teach you how to file your own copyright. Again, this is something you'll have to pay a lawyer thousands of dollars to do on your own behalf, and we're showing you how to do that as well. So right there, we're laying out some essential skills that every lawyer should know.

And then aside from that, we're teaching you about the business. So I think that's a good enough start to propel you. And hopefully from there, any savvy law student will take this and say, all right, Kenneth and Jared taught me what I need to know about patent law, but they didn't go as deep as I would have liked about this patent and that patent, how to apply it. At least you know now where to start and where to go. That's the beautiful thing about being a law student, every piece of knowledge is accessible if you know how to research and obtain it.

So we laid it out for you. We've started the groundwork, and hopefully people can build off of it and create their own careers out of this.

Khurram Naik: Yeah. And I think something that's very cool is how much you're conveying that these are the kinds of things you've done yourself. You included your business plan in this book, and I think that's a cool thing to share with someone, to say, hey, it's pretty meta, here's a step inside this world of how we pulled this off.

Well, I want to talk a little more about your time at Yeezy. One thing is, Kanye is one of the biggest stars in the world, and his creative process is so distinctive that people really want to understand it. He's a very studied subject. People really do analyze his deals. And with that in mind, you were already very familiar with what he was up to, because you were appreciating him as an artist, as you were saying. So as a result of your tenure at Yeezy, what changes in perspective or new insights do you have about Kanye as an artist and a businessperson? What are some insights you gained about how someone like him operates? And of course, I recognize this isn't about anything confidential, but just things you can speak to.

What's interesting to ask is, we were just talking about these indie ways of approaching things. And the question I'm considering is, of course Kanye is where he is today and created all of that, but he's in a completely different space than I am. He's in a different league. So how are your insights from learning about the way he thinks applicable to the individual? So that's the two parts, what did you learn, and what are the ways that applies to someone who's indie, just starting out?

Kenneth Anand: Sure. Without revealing any confidences, I can tell you about what's publicly known and just personally. I don't think there's anybody that works harder than Kanye West, right? And one of the things people most relate to about Kanye is his ability to not be wavered in anything that he sets his mind to. There are always outside voices that try to shut him down and talk about how you can't do this, you can't do that.

He wanted to be a music producer and he had to break into that business. Then he wanted to be a rapper and people said, no, music producers can't be rappers. Then he wanted to be a fashion designer and they said, stay a rapper, don't get into this game, and then he became one of the most successful fashion designers.

And he wanted to do architecture, and so many different things. That should be a lesson in and of itself. Don't listen to anybody. If you believe in yourself, and I think Kanye, in his ultimate core and musical message and whole ethos, is the best cheerleader for believing in yourself. Anybody who wants some inspiration should just turn on a Kanye song, and you can't help but believe anything is possible after you listen to it. So that, to me, was something I already knew.

But when I got to Yeezy, it was like, oh shit, I'm here. I'm here and I'm seeing it. And now I have to apply that to my life. So I didn't just settle. I didn't just say, okay, I have this great job at Yeezy, I'm set, I can coast.

I started learning as much about the business. I went back to business school. I got my executive MBA.

I was writing a book on the side with Jared, and I was looking at this like, why can't I get out all my dreams? That's his motto, get out your dreams. I think people need to do more of that. The only thing standing in the way of ourselves is ourselves. Kanye's found a way to remove that completely, to the point where it's almost unreal.

And how somebody can go from being $58 million in debt in 2014 or 2015 to being a multi-billionaire in 2016 is unheard of. It only comes from being so resolute in your abilities and your vision and your goal. It's not to say that everyone will accomplish it on such a grand scale, but I think everyone can benefit from that growth mindset and that dedication. And it's not easy.

You can see the amount of hate that he garners, the amount of backlash and negativity and criticism. And you have to shut all that off. It's really hard. That was one of the exciting things about writing this book in the pandemic. Jared and I, after our day jobs were done, we got on Zoom with each other and just put our heads down, and we didn't even know where it would go.

We had a business plan, as you said before, but we just got it done. We weren't asking people, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? We just kept with our vision and we put our heads down and we knew we believed in it.

You don't accomplish a lot when you're listening to outside noise. You don't accomplish a lot when you're second-guessing yourself. And I think that's something lawyers do all the time, overanalyze, think about all the risks, second-guess themselves. That's why business people are inherently more successful than lawyers.

So I think it's essential for lawyers to understand more about what it takes to be a successful businessperson, like risk tolerance, sometimes a little naivety, sometimes pure ignorance. Lawyers are great at knowing everything, but then getting nothing done when it comes to risk. So that was one of the most eye-opening things of my time there. It was like, all right, I'm a lawyer, but here's a business and I need to develop this business mindset if I want to be successful in my next stage. And sometimes that means putting aside all of the questions you ask, all of the overanalysis, all of the risk assessment, and just going after it.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I love that. That definitely is something that applies to any of us today, and there are no excuses. I love your comment about how Kanye is the perfect example of somebody who just discarded any form of self-doubt. It's this pure being of self-belief, and how powerful that is.

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, that really does change reality. And it's not easy. It's not easy, and it's all in our head, really. It's all in our head.

It's the little voices that talk us out of things. It's the haters from the sidelines, the people you call friends and family who say, oh, you could never do this, you could never do that. And I think he had a phenomenal support system, and his mother instilled in him at a very early age to just believe in yourself, and then you can do anything.

It's so rudimentary, but it's something that's not practiced enough. And I hope I can instill that in my kids, so that they have the fortitude to just keep pushing and not be worried about failures or outside criticism, and just go after what they want to do.

Khurram Naik: One thing I'm wondering then, I'm picturing when you talk about Kanye, his mother and his origins. I lived in Chicago for years, so we're very proud of Kanye there. So thinking about, well, Kanye doesn't live in Chicago anymore, right? Historically there have been these cultural epicenters, LA, New York primarily, and then other pockets, Atlanta. And then things get more distributed over time.

So now you've got people like Lil Nas X, from not one of those places. Memphis, maybe.

Kenneth Anand: Memphis, yeah.

Khurram Naik: I wish I could remember. I thought it was somewhere in Georgia, but maybe not. Anyhow. So just not one of these big cities. So what do you think, how is this going to pan out? Is it just going to continue to be this long tail of people from all over? How would Kanye have changed, or how would he have been different if he'd stayed in Chicago? If he'd had the opportunity to still make it as big as he is now, but it was flavored through Chicago, how different would he be? What would that look like?

Kenneth Anand: That's interesting. Yeah. I really don't know the answer to that, but I can say that as we grow as people, I think it's incumbent upon us to get different experiences, to go out and see the world. So if you know that you're successful in a particular area, and you know where that area is geographically most prevalent, I think you should go and try to be the best at your game there. And then once you've conquered that, maybe you go somewhere else. I think that's why Kanye moved to Wyoming at one point.

He wanted to master farming and how to manufacture in the United States and live off the land, and also build these amazing community and home developments. So that's his path. Most people, let's say you're from Little Town, America, you want to be an actor, you move to LA, right? You want to make it in fashion, you might move to New York. So these geographic moves are essential and part of everyone's growth, but I think today, as you said, we're seeing pockets of cities all over the place that are booming in different ways. Miami is now a hotbed for tech, which is really exciting. I was just down there teaching sneaker law with Jared at the University of Miami Law School and it was amazing.

You couldn't even get an Uber. It was incredible. And I heard that over 400,000 people have moved down to Miami during the pandemic, partially because of the warm weather and partially because of the opportunities. So I think as we grow, we have to be open to where to grow and where to go.

My business now has expanded into LA, and now we have an office in Milan and a factory in the South of Italy. I never expected to be in those places seven years ago, but here I am. So as we grow, as our mind grows in our knowledge and our aspirations, I think the world should be our oyster. We should try to grow out and access it.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, and I want to hear about Italy in a second. Before I do, I'm going to ask, did you have a favorite Kanye album heading into working at Yeezy, and did that change?

Kenneth Anand: Yes. I am a huge Pablo fan. I think what he did with The Life of Pablo was amazing. It's almost like asking you to pick who your favorite child is. My all-time favorite Kanye album is My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. I just think that cinematically and musically it's the most complete album I've ever heard in my life. I would put it up there with the Beatles' White Album, I would put it up there with Raekwon's Only Built 4 Cuban Linx and Scarface.

It's like Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy. My musical taste is very varied, and even though I'm a hip-hop guy, I was brought up on all different musical influences. But that, to me, was just beautiful. In order to understand Kanye's progression, musically you see it, so for me I never get stuck on one particular album, because I like to see how he grows musically, how he grows as an individual, how he grows in his businesses, and it's all reflected in his music. Jesus Is King is the first all-Kanye album that I can play for my kids in the car with no censoring, and it's beautiful.

And then I also bump the unreleased Yandhi. I don't know if you've ever heard that, but it's insane.

Khurram Naik: So, okay, I'm assuming this is not on Spotify.

Kenneth Anand: No, no, no, you've got to dig for that one.

Khurram Naik: Okay, so Italy. I love Italy a lot. It sounds like you've got connections to both Northern and Southern Italy. So tell me, what are the differences you've experienced between those two parts?

Kenneth Anand: I mean, fashion is all in the North and Milan, but all the trades and tradespeople and the manufacturers and the artisans tend to be further south and toward the central east coast of Italy and the Le Marche region.

So I've been really fortunate to get to meet some amazing factories, to get to work with some amazing artisans and manufacturers, and really understand how there are different pockets of experiences and skills depending on where you go. Even not in fashion, like Murano glass and Venetian glass and Carrara marble, there are so many different areas of skill and artistry. It's really a beautiful country, rich with so many different things. And then obviously you have wine, you have the Tuscany region, and then you have the Amalfi Coast and Capri. I've been on Duolingo, on my app, trying to learn Italian regularly, because it'll help me communicate better with my partners and all the people we interact with. And I've really enjoyed learning more about the culture. It's a beautiful country, rich with food, art, and history. It's incredible. It's been a little while since I've checked this, but it's got like the 10th or 11th largest GDP in the world.

Which is pretty hard to grasp, but I think that's from some of its exports, including fashion and automobiles. It's incredible to me.

Khurram Naik: That is. Yeah, I enjoyed Milan a lot, and everyone was very, very dapper. It was just an unreal level of standard for men. This is the way that you all dress. It sounds like a lot, but I appreciate that level of attention.

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, I'm still very impressed at how sharp some of these Italian businessmen are, and I definitely used to embody a little bit of that when I was a litigator going into court. There's a certain panache you have when you're Italian, in your suits, looking very sartorial.

Khurram Naik: So with this new era that you're in now, what are the things that are the biggest departures from how you used to work?

Kenneth Anand: I think when I was a practicing lawyer, I worked very independently. I did a lot of independent research.

I did a lot of independent writing. And I think now I work collaboratively. I have partners that I collaborate with on my licensing business. We have brands that we collaborate with in order to develop, manufacture, produce, and distribute their collections.

And then I collaborate with Jared on Sneaker Law, and that's been very exciting to me, because I don't have to wake up and just rely upon my own ambitions, my own drive, my own attitude of the day. I can connect with other people and feed off of their energy, and we can build together. And I really like that. It's hard to collaborate as a lawyer. You're given assignments. You go back to your office. You go back to the partner.

I think part of understanding business is working with different people in different disciplines and skill sets. So I've really enjoyed finding people who complement my skill sets. My partner, Cristiano, is an amazing complement to my skill set.

He brings 25 years in the fashion industry. He brings a really good approach to dealing with designers and creative people that I admire and try to embody in my own approach. And Jared is the same on the Sneaker Law side. His approach is laid back, and I'm a little bit more high-strung and impatient. I think that's the beauty of it. Finding people who complement you and collaborating and growing.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, I think that's awesome. And it seems so much a luxury of your career as you progress, but I don't think there's anything you're taught, that you can't be seeking earlier in your career to find out.

Kenneth Anand: Not at all. Not at all. I tell most of the students and young individuals I speak with that you don't have to take my path. Don't wait 15 years to wake up and realize that you love sneakers, love fashion, and then want to make that your full-time interest. Jump into it while you're young and you don't have all the responsibilities that I did, two kids and a mortgage and a very supportive wife. The earlier that you can get involved in what you're passionate about, I think the better.

Khurram Naik: But I think that's part of what's so remarkable about your story, the changes you've made at a point when you were very comfortable with what you were doing. You could have stuck with that. It wouldn't have been pleasurable, but it was comfortable, and those are trade-offs sometimes. So I really admire that you made that switch. And I think what you've done doesn't just speak to law students, it speaks to people at any stage of their career. Or, frankly, fairly senior stages, to say, hey, do a reassessment of what's really important to you, what's driving you. That's hard to come by, period. People don't really do this stuff.

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, I agree. And it was a lot to take in at the time. It was a big risk, and had I thought it through a little bit more, maybe I wouldn't have done it. But being a partner in a law firm is a grind.

And I'm not saying that I was wildly successful at it, right? Maybe if I had a $10 million book of business, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. I'd be kicking back and letting my associates do the work for me. But it's really hard.

I struggled year after year to continue to bring in business, to develop business, to work with my partners and get them to refer work to me. It's tough. And although the pay was adequate, I just saw a long road ahead, and I wanted something different. A lot of people take a look at their legal careers and say, okay, I'll go in-house now, or maybe I'll be a real estate broker. I think the important thing is to not live above your means, so that you can make these decisions and you're not wedded to firm life.

Many people go into these law firms and they get the fancy apartment. They start traveling all over the world. They get married. They have kids.

They get more engaged. They live close to the office in expensive places. And before you know it, your ability to move out and do something radical or a little bit risky is diminished. I was very fortunate that I had a wife who was also a practicing attorney.

She supported me in some of my crazy, harebrained, risky moves, and now I'm able to repay that, and she was able to take a step away from her job and concentrate on our family. So having somebody who supports you in these decisions, I can't overstate it, it's super helpful. Maybe I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not had that luxury.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, but you know what, the corresponding virtue is that you're sharing that with people so they can be thinking about it earlier on. So that's awesome that you're doing that. Well, I learned a ton. This was super interesting, Kenneth, and I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Thanks for joining us.

Kenneth Anand: Yeah, man, I'm really super impressed by the platform that you're building here. And I think if I contributed in any way and helped some people out, then we did a good job today. You know, I'm just a Converse.

Khurram Naik: Yeah, man, thank you.

Kenneth Anand: Thanks for having me. Let's do it.